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	<title>Comments for Vox Nova</title>
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	<link>http://vox-nova.com</link>
	<description>Catholic perspectives on culture, society, and politics</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 23 Feb 2012 03:49:10 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on HHS Mandate: a tale of two cities? by Thales</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2012/02/17/hhs-mandate-a-tale-of-two-cities/#comment-126004</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Thales]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Feb 2012 03:49:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=21637#comment-126004</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Kurt,

I think your suggested situation is probably fine -- it&#039;s similar to an employer giving an increased pay amount, and the employee using that increased pay to purchase contraception himself, or to purchase a separate insurance plan that covers contraception.  I don&#039;t have any reservations about that.  Get the White House on board!  :)

From everything I&#039;ve read, the President&#039;s accommodation is not the Diocese of Honolulu&#039;s; and I&#039;ve also read plenty indicating that the Diocese of Honolulu&#039;s situation is not acceptable.because the plan still requires the employer to refer employees to where they can get contraception.  (I don&#039;t find it relevant that the Diocese of Honolulu survives under its rule -- as I&#039;ve said elsewhere, the fact that someone lives under a certain rule and is even able to cooperate with it morally, doesn&#039;t mean that the rule is not unjust or objectionable.)  Moreover, the accommodation (as most people understand it) is still objectionable to the bishops and to most who have looked at it.  Finally -- and I think, importantly -- remember, the accommodation doesn&#039;t actually exist right now.  Right now, the law is the original rule (to which practically everyone voiced an objection).  And I can&#039;t say that I have any confidence that the President will actually do anything to modify the rule -- I mean, it&#039;s been two weeks since the President&#039;s statement about the accommodation, but we still haven&#039;t seen from the White House any proposed language for modifying the rule, nor have we seen any timeline for getting the rule modified before August 2013.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kurt,</p>
<p>I think your suggested situation is probably fine &#8212; it&#8217;s similar to an employer giving an increased pay amount, and the employee using that increased pay to purchase contraception himself, or to purchase a separate insurance plan that covers contraception.  I don&#8217;t have any reservations about that.  Get the White House on board!  :)</p>
<p>From everything I&#8217;ve read, the President&#8217;s accommodation is not the Diocese of Honolulu&#8217;s; and I&#8217;ve also read plenty indicating that the Diocese of Honolulu&#8217;s situation is not acceptable.because the plan still requires the employer to refer employees to where they can get contraception.  (I don&#8217;t find it relevant that the Diocese of Honolulu survives under its rule &#8212; as I&#8217;ve said elsewhere, the fact that someone lives under a certain rule and is even able to cooperate with it morally, doesn&#8217;t mean that the rule is not unjust or objectionable.)  Moreover, the accommodation (as most people understand it) is still objectionable to the bishops and to most who have looked at it.  Finally &#8212; and I think, importantly &#8212; remember, the accommodation doesn&#8217;t actually exist right now.  Right now, the law is the original rule (to which practically everyone voiced an objection).  And I can&#8217;t say that I have any confidence that the President will actually do anything to modify the rule &#8212; I mean, it&#8217;s been two weeks since the President&#8217;s statement about the accommodation, but we still haven&#8217;t seen from the White House any proposed language for modifying the rule, nor have we seen any timeline for getting the rule modified before August 2013.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Hematite Crucifix: A Lenten Meditation by Mark Gordon</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2012/02/22/hematite-crucifix-a-lenten-meditation/#comment-126001</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark Gordon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Feb 2012 01:47:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=21691#comment-126001</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Nice kicker at the end there, Julia. He absorbs not just our sins but all the negativity that attends us. Lovely meditation. Thank you for this.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice kicker at the end there, Julia. He absorbs not just our sins but all the negativity that attends us. Lovely meditation. Thank you for this.</p>
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		<title>Comment on HHS Mandate: a tale of two cities? by Kurt</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2012/02/17/hhs-mandate-a-tale-of-two-cities/#comment-126000</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kurt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Feb 2012 01:34:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=21637#comment-126000</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[No, the Civil Rights Act has an even more generous exemption when it comes to religious discrimination.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, the Civil Rights Act has an even more generous exemption when it comes to religious discrimination.</p>
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		<title>Comment on HHS Mandate: a tale of two cities? by Kurt</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2012/02/17/hhs-mandate-a-tale-of-two-cities/#comment-125999</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kurt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Feb 2012 01:31:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=21637#comment-125999</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thales,

Well, that is some progress.  What are the points of your reservation?  If a boss has separated himself from the purchase of contraception but surrendered an opportunity to obstruct his employees from obtaining contraception, is that a concern?

Of course, the President has tried to do the same as us here in finding solutions.  He revised the initial plan to match the accomodation the Diocese of Honolulu obtained and that many Catholic universities already follow.  You can say that is not enough, but I don&#039;t think you can say he is not trying.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thales,</p>
<p>Well, that is some progress.  What are the points of your reservation?  If a boss has separated himself from the purchase of contraception but surrendered an opportunity to obstruct his employees from obtaining contraception, is that a concern?</p>
<p>Of course, the President has tried to do the same as us here in finding solutions.  He revised the initial plan to match the accomodation the Diocese of Honolulu obtained and that many Catholic universities already follow.  You can say that is not enough, but I don&#8217;t think you can say he is not trying.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Santorum is the one with the &#8220;phony theology&#8221; by J.D.</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2012/02/21/santorum-is-the-one-with-the-phony-theology/#comment-125996</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J.D.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Feb 2012 00:28:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=21718#comment-125996</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What is particular interesting about Benedict&#039;s reflections on the environment is his exegesis of the Babylonian Exile. In his wonderful little reflection on Creation, &quot;In the Beginning&quot; his exegesis leads him to argue that the Exile may have been punishment because the Israelites did not let the earth have its Sabbath every 7 years. He cites a passage in Chronicles that seems to suggest that at least some Israelites interpreted their exile in this manner.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is particular interesting about Benedict&#8217;s reflections on the environment is his exegesis of the Babylonian Exile. In his wonderful little reflection on Creation, &#8220;In the Beginning&#8221; his exegesis leads him to argue that the Exile may have been punishment because the Israelites did not let the earth have its Sabbath every 7 years. He cites a passage in Chronicles that seems to suggest that at least some Israelites interpreted their exile in this manner.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Santorum is the one with the &#8220;phony theology&#8221; by digbydolben</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2012/02/21/santorum-is-the-one-with-the-phony-theology/#comment-125995</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[digbydolben]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Feb 2012 00:23:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=21718#comment-125995</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Rodak, Western Europe may have been the source of the ideology of Social Darwinist capitalism, but it&#039;s pretty apparent to me, after having lived there for some time, that the Europeans have abandoned this kind of liberalism. You should hear the sneers in the voices of the French, for example, when they refer to the &quot;Anglo-American version of capitalism.&quot; And they and the other Europeans are correct that it is the Americans who attempt to forcibly spread this system everywhere in the world.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rodak, Western Europe may have been the source of the ideology of Social Darwinist capitalism, but it&#8217;s pretty apparent to me, after having lived there for some time, that the Europeans have abandoned this kind of liberalism. You should hear the sneers in the voices of the French, for example, when they refer to the &#8220;Anglo-American version of capitalism.&#8221; And they and the other Europeans are correct that it is the Americans who attempt to forcibly spread this system everywhere in the world.</p>
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		<title>Comment on HHS Mandate: a tale of two cities? by Thales</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2012/02/17/hhs-mandate-a-tale-of-two-cities/#comment-125992</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Thales]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 21:28:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=21637#comment-125992</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Kurt,
That scenario would certainly be a lesser cooperation with evil.  I don&#039;t know whether the cooperation would be immoral or not -- I&#039;d have to do a full analysis of all the details and circumstances.  But I welcome your interest in seeking out other possible scenarios that aren&#039;t as infringing on conscience.  &lt;i&gt;Why won&#039;t the Obama admin do the same?&lt;/i&gt;

(Also, remember, the issue is not strictly whether it is morally permissible or not for the employer to indirectly pay for contraception.  It&#039;s morally permissible for me to buy your contraception if you&#039;re threatening my family at gunpoint, for example.  Instead, the issue is whether the infringement on freedom is just or not, regardless of whether the cooperation with evil is morally permissible.  The Public Discourse has a recent article on this:
http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2012/02/4817  )]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kurt,<br />
That scenario would certainly be a lesser cooperation with evil.  I don&#8217;t know whether the cooperation would be immoral or not &#8212; I&#8217;d have to do a full analysis of all the details and circumstances.  But I welcome your interest in seeking out other possible scenarios that aren&#8217;t as infringing on conscience.  <i>Why won&#8217;t the Obama admin do the same?</i></p>
<p>(Also, remember, the issue is not strictly whether it is morally permissible or not for the employer to indirectly pay for contraception.  It&#8217;s morally permissible for me to buy your contraception if you&#8217;re threatening my family at gunpoint, for example.  Instead, the issue is whether the infringement on freedom is just or not, regardless of whether the cooperation with evil is morally permissible.  The Public Discourse has a recent article on this:<br />
<a href="http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2012/02/4817" rel="nofollow">http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2012/02/4817</a>  )</p>
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		<title>Comment on Fasting for Vitality by Julia Smucker</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2012/02/22/fasting-for-vitality/#comment-125991</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Julia Smucker]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 21:27:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=21708#comment-125991</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Exercise, good eating, regular sleep: all of these things and more are not that far from the reality we find in fasting and ascetic practices like abstaining from meat and giving up something for Lent.&quot;

I read this as meaning that such practices can tilt the balance closer to a truly healthy life - the kind of vitality human beings are made for - relative to those cultural ideals that encourage self-indulgence.  Was I misreading?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Exercise, good eating, regular sleep: all of these things and more are not that far from the reality we find in fasting and ascetic practices like abstaining from meat and giving up something for Lent.&#8221;</p>
<p>I read this as meaning that such practices can tilt the balance closer to a truly healthy life &#8211; the kind of vitality human beings are made for &#8211; relative to those cultural ideals that encourage self-indulgence.  Was I misreading?</p>
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		<title>Comment on HHS Mandate: a tale of two cities? by David Nickol</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2012/02/17/hhs-mandate-a-tale-of-two-cities/#comment-125990</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Nickol]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 21:23:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=21637#comment-125990</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Kurt,

Did you mean &quot;discriminate on the basis of religion&quot; (not race)?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kurt,</p>
<p>Did you mean &#8220;discriminate on the basis of religion&#8221; (not race)?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Santorum is the one with the &#8220;phony theology&#8221; by Rodak</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2012/02/21/santorum-is-the-one-with-the-phony-theology/#comment-125989</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rodak]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 21:19:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=21718#comment-125989</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@ digbydolben --

Are you repeatedly saying that &quot;Americans&quot; are doing this and &quot;Americans&quot; are doing that, simply because most the persons to whom you are addressing yourself happen to be Americans? Or are you really saying that Americans are uniquely the exponents of this kind of liberalism? I think a case can be made that the source of it was Western Europe, and the market for it is most of the world, to the extent that they can pull it off. I completely agree with you that it&#039;s evil. But I don&#039;t feel that the evil is uniquely American.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ digbydolben &#8211;</p>
<p>Are you repeatedly saying that &#8220;Americans&#8221; are doing this and &#8220;Americans&#8221; are doing that, simply because most the persons to whom you are addressing yourself happen to be Americans? Or are you really saying that Americans are uniquely the exponents of this kind of liberalism? I think a case can be made that the source of it was Western Europe, and the market for it is most of the world, to the extent that they can pull it off. I completely agree with you that it&#8217;s evil. But I don&#8217;t feel that the evil is uniquely American.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Fasting for Vitality by Sam Rocha</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2012/02/22/fasting-for-vitality/#comment-125988</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sam Rocha]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 20:57:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=21708#comment-125988</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The desert mystics who lived on the Eucharist alone, did not deny their bodies life, they were the most alive bodies I can imagine. This is what I mean, Pachy.

Sam]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The desert mystics who lived on the Eucharist alone, did not deny their bodies life, they were the most alive bodies I can imagine. This is what I mean, Pachy.</p>
<p>Sam</p>
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		<title>Comment on Fasting for Vitality by The Pachyderminator</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2012/02/22/fasting-for-vitality/#comment-125986</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[The Pachyderminator]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 19:47:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=21708#comment-125986</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This is Ash Wednesday, a day for prayer and not for combox disputations. Nevertheless, I do feel called on to comment.

It seems to me that to compare fasting to things like &quot;exercise, good eating, regular sleep&quot; is to miss the point entirely. There is a certain kinship, of course, but it&#039;s just flat-out wrong to say that the purpose of ascetic practice is to achieve a more passionate bodily existence. Fasting is &lt;em&gt;supposed&lt;/em&gt; to be detached from ordinary practice. It&#039;s &lt;em&gt;supposed&lt;/em&gt; to be different from what we do every day. It may not be about denying the body, but it&#039;s certainly about going beyond the body, affirming that the perfect life will only come after we have put it aside. It&#039;s a detachment from passing, temporal things for the sake of a stronger attachment to eternal, spiritual things.

You&#039;re right, of course, that putting the body aside at death will not be permanent. The night is dark, but joy comes with dawn. Ascetic practice is life-giving, but that&#039;s precisely because it is a practice of death. Death is to be passed through, not denied. As long as we are in the mortal world, the spirit can be at odds with the flesh. There is a form of going without food for the benefit of the body, but it&#039;s called dieting, not fasting, and as far as I know it&#039;s not prominent in the Catholic tradition.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is Ash Wednesday, a day for prayer and not for combox disputations. Nevertheless, I do feel called on to comment.</p>
<p>It seems to me that to compare fasting to things like &#8220;exercise, good eating, regular sleep&#8221; is to miss the point entirely. There is a certain kinship, of course, but it&#8217;s just flat-out wrong to say that the purpose of ascetic practice is to achieve a more passionate bodily existence. Fasting is <em>supposed</em> to be detached from ordinary practice. It&#8217;s <em>supposed</em> to be different from what we do every day. It may not be about denying the body, but it&#8217;s certainly about going beyond the body, affirming that the perfect life will only come after we have put it aside. It&#8217;s a detachment from passing, temporal things for the sake of a stronger attachment to eternal, spiritual things.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re right, of course, that putting the body aside at death will not be permanent. The night is dark, but joy comes with dawn. Ascetic practice is life-giving, but that&#8217;s precisely because it is a practice of death. Death is to be passed through, not denied. As long as we are in the mortal world, the spirit can be at odds with the flesh. There is a form of going without food for the benefit of the body, but it&#8217;s called dieting, not fasting, and as far as I know it&#8217;s not prominent in the Catholic tradition.</p>
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