Three Blind Mice Accept Understudy
On 24 June 2012, I authored a post entitled “Three Blind Mice Attempt Catholic Ecclesiology.” In this post, I drew from various sources within Catholic teaching and presented the Catholic view that persons who disagree with certain teachings of the Church need not feel that leaving the Church is a necessary consequence of such disagreement. On 27 June 2012, Bonald from The Orthosphere introduced a response to me (“I Disagree: Faithful Dissent”). This further post represents my invitation to Bonald to benefit from how Catholic teaching approaches the realities of which we speak.
Bonald identifies me as “she” even though I, in the post which provokes “I Disagree: Faithful Dissent,” self-identify as “he.” By the end of “Three Blind Mice Accept Understudy,” it will be apparent that this carelessness is representative of a larger sloppiness and inability to engage with the ecclesiological principles and interpretation of Canon Law which I articulate. In responding as I do — by providing occasion for Bonald to self-distance from “I Disagree: Faithful Dissent” — the direction any subsequent conversation can take will be more apparent to me.
Opportunity #1 for Retraction: Bonald, shall I assume you retract your statement that I have “produced an argument … for why Catholics who reject Church teachings aren’t really rejecting Church teaching”?
At no point do I argue that those who reject Church teaching aren’t really rejecting Church teaching. Even as I conclude and make reference to the ‘hierarchy of truths’ spoken of in Paragraph 11 of Unitatis redintegratio, I state that “it is not that some teachings matter and some don’t but rather that the fundamental Christian faith is the God revealed in Jesus Christ. Being a Christian, to use the language of the current Pope, is found in the encounter with Jesus Christ who gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction. It is not found in being right about homosexuality, women’s ordination or artificial methods of regulating birth.”
Nowhere is the suggestion here being made that persons who have come to different conclusions than the Church’s teaching authority have not really come to different conclusions, nor is the suggestion being made that the Church’s teaching authority has come to incorrect conclusions about the matters being disputed by individual persons within the Church, nor is the suggestion being made that being right about such matters is unimportant.
Opportunity #2 for Retraction: Bonald, shall I assume that you retract your statement that I am “upset that conservative Catholics would like the modernist heretics to just apostasize and stop trying to undermine the Church from within”?
The act of heresy is not touched upon in “Three Blind Mice…” Canon 1751 of the Code of Canon Law states that “heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith.”
The conclusions persons have drawn about homosexuality, the reservation of priestly orders to men and/or artificial methods of regulating birth, however erroneous they may be, are not themselves conclusions relevant to heresy. Assuming their proper identification among teachings definitively connected with divine revelation, the Ratzinger-Bertone Commentary on Ad Tuendam Fidem states that a person who “denies these truths would be in the position of rejecting a truth of Catholic doctrine and would therefore no longer be in full communion with the Catholic Church.” That is a serious condition to experience (and it assumes proper identification among teachings definitively connected with divine revelation) , but it is not the experience of a heretic.
The New Commentary on the Code of Canon Law, commissioned by the Canon Law Society of America states that “heresy is a denial or doubt of ‘a truth which is to be believed with divine and Catholic faith’ (cf. c. 750, no. 1; but the crime of heresy applies only to this narrow category of truths; it does not extend to the ‘secondary objects of infallibility,’ i.e., those truths necessary to preserve and expound the deposit of faith, c. 750, no. 2); these are central truths like the Incarnation and Resurrection of the Lord, and not at all like the morality of artificial contraception or the discipline of not ordaining women to the priesthood.”
Opportunity #3 for Retraction: Bonald, shall I assume you retract your statement that I accuse those whose comments motivate my response of being “unfaithful to the Magisterium for saying that the Magisterium must be obeyed!”?
At no point do I accuse people of being “unfaithful to the Magisterium for saying that the Magisterium must be obeyed.” In fact, were those comments which motivate my response faithful, themselves, to Catholic teaching, then no conversation would be occurring here.
Bruce Burgess evidences his disregard for (or ignorance of) Catholic teaching when he writes that he “wholeheartedly agree[s]” that “those who disagree with the Church’s teachings should leave the Church” and when he states that if such persons “won’t go voluntarily, they should be expelled,” he advocates something other than Catholic teaching.
Bruce is not accused of being unfaithful to the Magisterium for saying that the Magisterium should be obeyed. He doesn’t say the Magisterium should be obeyed, and more importantly, I don’t “accuse” Bruce of anything. I “question” why he has subordinated the teaching authority of the Church — why he has subordinated representatives such as the German Bishops — to Bill Keller, a former editor of the New York Times. I question how Bruce would evaluate my request (a request I do not make) that he leave the Church because of his disregard of Catholic teaching. Considering his subordination of Catholic teaching to his own particular ideology — manifested in his view that persons who disagree with Catholic teaching be expelled — I wonder whether, given his own disagreement with Catholic teaching, Bruce will lead the exodus.
TCDU had written that “most” of those in disagreement with particular Church teaching had been “excommunicated automatically,” and this subordinates the Church’s Code of Canon Law, promulgated in 1983, to one not a part of the Catholic Church
In the 1983 Code of Canon Law, the types of offenses which incur automatic excommunication are confined to 7 canons (Canons. 1364, 1367, 1370, 1378, 1382, 1388 & 1389) and none apply to those who disagree with what the Church presents as true regarding homosexuality, women’s ordination and artificial methods of regulating birth. Further, Canon 1323 identifies ways in which a person, seemingly having automatically excommunicated him or herself, not necessarily be seen as having done so.
Certainly I believe TCDU is being unfaithful to Catholic teaching. While the intent need not be malicious, how else could someone like TCDU — who subordinates the Code of Canon Law to some secret code motivated by individual ideology — be possibility looked upon by a person such as myself who is preparing for priestly ordination?
As for Squire98, I do not accuse this person of being “unfaithful to the Magisterium for saying that the Magisterium must be obeyed.” Rather, I accuse this person of not being faithful to Catholic teaching. Squire98 speaks of those “RINO Catholics,” a Freudian slip which suggests to me the entity to which Squire98 has subconsciously reduced Catholicism. Further, Squire98 intends to refer to Catholics in Name Only, but what a designation such as this does is reduce Catholicism not simply to its teaching authority, but to the particular positions the teaching authority articulates on matters related to human sexuality. That in Jesus, God has been uniquely revealed, and that in the Church Jesus continues to present himself, is lost in such a reduction.
Opportunity #4 for Retraction: Bonald, shall I assume you retract your statement that “Catholic teaching comes in three levels: (1) what comes straight out of revelation (the Bible); (2) what follows through logical necessity from revelation and (3) other pronouncements”?
Paragraph 2 of Ad Tuendam Fidem, or the CDF’s “Profession of Faith,” describes the first gradation in the following way: “With firm faith, I also believe everything contained in the word of God, whether written or handed down in Tradition, which the Church, either by solemn judgment or by the ordinary and universal magisterium, sets forth to be believed as divinely revealed.” It is not the Bible that the first gradation has as its interest but rather that which the Church, either by solemn judgment or by the ordinary exercise of the universal magisterium sets forth as divinely revealed.
Paragraph 5 of the Ratzinger-Bertone Commentary states that such teachings “require the assent of theological faith by all members of the faithful [and] whoever obstinately places them in doubt or denies them falls under the censure of heresy,” and “without any intention of completeness,” Paragraph 11 identifies teachings contained within the various creeds, various Christological or Marian dogmas, or the institution of the sacraments by Christ and their efficacy with regard to grace as examples of that which is found within the first gradation.
To repeat: Catholics are not Bibliolatrists, and the first gradation has as its interest the extraordinary exercise of the Magisterium (a solemn judgment) and an ordinary exercise of the universal Magisterium, and neither of these are relevant, nor does the Church suggest they are relevant to the issues of homosexuality, reservation of priestly orders to men, and artificial methods of regulating birth.
To characterize the second gradation as referring simply to “what follows through logical necessity from revelation” is mistaken. Of interest is the definitive, and in the Ratzinger-Bertone Commentary, the authors distinguish between teachings which are connected to revelation by logical necessity, and teachings connected by historical necessity. They identify the reservation of priestly orders to men as a doctrine connected to revelation by logical necessity, and in terms of teachings connected by historical necessity, they cite the legitimacy of a Pontiff’s election, the canonization of saints, and the invalidity of Anglican orders.
In Paragraph 23 of the CDF’s “Instruction on the Ecclesial Vocation of the Theologian,” it is stated that “even if not divinely revealed, [these teachings] are nevertheless strictly and intimately concerned with Revelation [and] these must be firmly accepted and held. The Church’s infallibility extends to teachings which are sometimes called ‘secondary objects of infallibility.’”
It is within the second gradation that many of the teachings which some dispute (artificial methods of regulating birth, the reservation of priestly orders to men…) are interpreted to inhabit. Although others question this interpretation, even when such teachings are considered to be a part of the third gradation, such teachings are still owed a response that is not insignificant.
Opportunity #5 for Retraction: Bonald shall I assume you retract your statement that I am offering a “trick for beginning modernists to push all the stuff that offends against modern androgynist utilitarianism into the third category, and then say that the third category are teachings we must ‘respect’ but not necessarily believe”?
In no way am I offering a “trick for beginning modernists.” Paragraph 25 of Lumen gentium states that “religious submission of will and intellect is to be given in a special way to the authentic Magisterium of the Roman Pontiff even when he is not speaking ex cathedra.” Relevant to the third gradation are those teachings that can be described positively (ordinary or authentic, for example) or negatively (non-definitive, non-infallible or non-irreformable, for example).
At the Second Vatican Council, the Theological Commission replied to an emendation proposed by three bishops who “invoke a particular case, which is at least theoretically possible, in which a certain learned person, in the face of a doctrine that has not been infallibly proposed, cannot, for well-founded reasons, give his internal assent.” The response given is that the approved theological treatises should be consulted.
The Theological Commission is interpreted as showing awareness that the theological manuals in circulation did treat the question. Francis Sullivan, in Creative Fidelity: Weighting and Interpreting Documents of the Magisterium, cites the widely used manual of Ludwig Lercher who, in describing how the Church may be protected from error, describes the guidance that the Holy Spirit offers to the Pope as being the most common way. However, Lercher notes that it “is not unthinkable that the error (on the part of the Church) should be excluded by the Holy Spirit in this way: that the subjects [of the Church] recognize the decree to be erroneous and cease to give their assent to it.”
Mentioned already are the German Bishops who wrote, in the 1960’s, that the Christian person “who believes he has a right to his private opinion, that he already knows what the Church will only come to grasp later, must ask himself in sober self-criticism before God and his conscience, whether he has the necessary depth and breadth of theological expertise to allow his private theory and practice to depart from the present doctrine of the ecclesiastical authorities. The case is in principle admissible. But conceit and presumption will have to answer for their willingness before the judgment seat of God (emphasis added).” Such a person, as I have already noted, may indeed be mistaken, but according to the German Bishops, such a person is not necessarily deluded simply because he or she claims to “know what the Church will only come to grasp later.”
Such an understanding emerges as reconcilable with the “religious submission of will and intellect” that is owed to an authoritative but non-definitive teaching. Avery Dulles notes, in Magisterium: Teacher and Guardian of the Faith, the difficulty in translating “obsequium religiousum” and offers up potentials such as religious submission, religious assent, conditional assent, religious respect, religious adherence, religious allegiance or some other variant, while Francis Sullivan suggests that in the face of such ambiguity “one should not give too strong a meaning to ‘submission’ or too weak a meaning to ‘respect.’”
To Avery Dulles, Paragraph 24 of the Instruction on the Ecclesial Vocation of the Theologian, which states that “the willingness to submit loyally to the Magisterium on matters per se not irreformable must be the rule,” lends credibility to the notion that in exceptional cases, the requirements of ‘obsequium’ can be fulfilled by what Francis Sullivan calls an “honest and sustained effort to overcome any contrary opinion I might have” even if that effort does not result in the actual assent of the intellect.”
For some, religious submission” is going to be hard work but it is work that cannot be avoided. The point, in light of such hard work, is not to get teachings into the third gradation so that a person no longer has to believe, because the response owed to teachings of the third gradation is “religious submission.”
To conclude, in engaging with the first one hundred and fifty three words of Bonald’s response, nothing of substance remains in the first one hundred and fifty three words of the critique offered in “I Disagree…” Literally almost all that remains are identifications of Bonald’s emotions (“I was eager to see how Wilson would respond…” or “she doesn’t disappoint”). My hope would be that any disappointment Bonald now feels at having literally every sentence engaged with decimated — that any disappointment Bonald now feels at having been exposed as having missed in even identifying accurately one line of reasoning — would motivate in Bonald a new-found appreciation for Catholic theology (a theology with which, before reading this post, he had apparently not been acquainted).
Why does any of this matter? It matters because for persons in the pew, and for all sorts of reasons, faith really can be a struggle for some. There is a difference between the sorts of orthodoxy tests particular ideologies motivate and authentic Christianity. What persons who have different psychological dispositions need to realize is that there are certain types of persons for whom the appropriation of orthodoxy will vary, and as Unitatis redentigratio identifies, there exists a hierarchy of truths. If someone can recognize that in Jesus, God has been uniquely revealed, and that in the Church he continues to present himself, then that’s a touch more important to me than truths connected to these central ones. Those matters which my own upbringing or environment might have helped me to see as a logical or historical result of the kerygma, might, for another person and for all sorts of different reasons, unfold and be appropriated at a different pace. It is my view that in the Church such people should always find a safe place to interact and develop, and that is why I react as strongly as I do when I hear the suggestion that such persons leave.
K.
Comments are closed.





Hello Mr. Wilson (sorry again about the “Ms”.),
I am honored by the thoroughness of your reply to my critique. Perhaps some of our disagreements (not all, unfortunately) are over words.
Regarding #1, I would assent to your statement “Being a Christian, to use the language of the current Pope, is found in the encounter with Jesus Christ who gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction. It is not found in being right about homosexuality, women’s ordination or artificial methods of regulating birth” if you were to replace “not found in” with “not found only in”. Catholic teaching on the family and sexuality is certainly not the whole of Christianity (who ever suspected it is?), but it is an integral part of it. Catholic doctrine is tightly interconnected, and a person with a problem with our sexual ethics probably has a problem with our whole sacramental view of the world. I’m not saying you disagree with this.
Regarding #2, I’m happy to accept your more precise terminology, since you affirm that people who reject these teachings are indeed rejecting Catholic doctrine and compromising their union with the Church. I personally don’t see the need for two words for rejections of different parts of the Catholic faith–I can’t think of what effect it could have other than to sow confusion among the faithful–but it seems this is a quarrel I have with Canon Law, not with you.
In number 3, your objection is only over words. You do indeed accuse these people–whose only concern is to uphold established Catholic teaching–with being unfaithful to Catholic teaching. I think it is unjust–not to mention uncharitable–to say that someone who demands adherence to Catholic teaching is replacing Catholic teaching with some sort of ideology, as if he were demanding that his coreligionists accept libertarianism or environmentalism or whatever. The standard he brings to bear comes from within the faith itself, rather than being imported from outside. It seems that here we have hit on a genuine disagreement, although ironically it is I who take the more expansive view of Catholic orthodoxy.
Regarding 4 and 5, the division of Catholic teaching is only relevant for the purposes in question if some division in the degree of certainty and adherence demanded, and indeed your sources claim that for a division 3 teaching, Catholics are only required to seriously try to make themselves believe it, rather than to actually believe it. Now, the Church’s teachings on contraception, sodomy, and gender-role distinctions are so consonant with right reason, with healthy intuition, and with the consensus of human history that in most times and places we could be sure that someone who tried to convince himself of their truth would certainly succeed. In these evil times, when sin is celebrated in the popular culture and endorsed by the State, we must speak with a clearer voice. After all, these are mortal sins we’re talking about; people are very likely going to hell for lack of clear teaching from the clergy. It will only increase a person’s burden who is battling temptations of the flesh to have the certainty in what is required of him taken away. The Church has this certainty to offer, because what we are talking about is not just, as the German bishops said, the “present doctrine of the ecclesiastical authorities”, but the unanimous teaching of the Church since the Apostles.
In conclusion, I suspect that where you and I disagree most is not in our beliefs (since I don’t doubt your personal loyalty to Church teaching) but in our concerns. You worry that there are a lot of people who believe the Church’s supernatural doctrines and are not personally engaged in any sexual sins (and therefore don’t need the Church’s teaching in this area for their own souls’ sake) but who are driven out of the Church by a demand for assent to “secondary” moral doctrines. In my experience, such people are very rare. Those who endorse sodomy almost always reject the Church’s teaching authority overall, and they reject the core doctrines of the creed (or “accept” them only metaphorically). They openly mock Catholic teaching and the activists among them are aggressively working to undermine it. The Church has little to gain in catering to this type, and much to lose. Those who are struggling to defend Catholic morality, those who are struggling to pass it on to their children, and those who are struggling to live it are demoralized by clerical soft-pedaling, while those who are young and impressionable are more likely to be led astray without clear guidance. As a priest, you will have to worry about these souls, and not just the Anne Rice types (on whom your efforts will probably be wasted anyway). I have only the barest idea how great a challenge this must be for our priests–the ones that really try to uphold the faith of all their parishioners–and I wish you good luck and God’s help.
“Catholic doctrine is tightly interconnected, and a person with a problem with our sexual ethics probably has a problem with our whole sacramental view of the world.”
I have a problem with the suggestion that if a person doesn’t agree with Catholic sexual ethics, it’s likely that other aspects of their theology aren’t “Catholic” either. I consider myself pretty theologically traditional in regard to almost all aspects of the faith. I do have a problem with the aspect of Catholic sexual ethics that deals with gay relationships. I do not have a problem with “our whole sacramental view of the world.” I consider myself a faithful Catholic who struggles with a couple of aspects of the Church’s teaching. It would be intellectually dishonest for me to claim agreement with the Church on these matters, but I also understand that faith development is a process. Many of us who have trouble agreeing with certain Church teachings are making genuine attempts to reconcile that disagreement. In doing this, I see no problem with maintaining my current opinion while studying the Church’s teaching more deeply and waiting to see what theological developments may come in that area in the future. Perhaps the greatest difficulty I experience in attending Mass these days is the fact that many self-proclaimed defenders of orthodoxy are very quick to label me as a heretic. I don’t believe this is helpful. There are lots of intellectually honest, well-meaning people who are genuinely seeking truth, but are not presently in agreement with the Church on one issue for another. There are many people who would say, “I believe the Church is holy and teaches truth, but I don’t believe what the Church teaches on issue X. There is a disconnect here. I need to resolve it.” I wish that people would stop judging others’ processes of resolving personal conflict with Catholic teaching. It would also be nice if defenders of orthodoxy would stop assuming that dissenters who are doing their best to be faithful are actually heretics who have not given thought to the interconnectedness of various doctrines.
Bonald, I thank you for your response. Considering the decimation your first 153 words experienced at the hands of “Three Blind Mice Accept Understudy,” I admire your courage in returning to this conversation, applaud you for your tone, and appreciate your attempts to articulate where we agree and where we disagree. These are areas I myself would like to pursue with you, and the quality of your response here indicates to me potential progress we can make in our conversation.
Having said this, and meaning it sincerely, I am not going to ignore what motivated my post “Three Blind Mice Accept Understudy.” Now that you know that I am preparing for ordination, perhaps I can share with you something I learned in my philosophical formation (a formation a candidate for priestly ministry would typically receive in my part of the world).
Keep in mind that you credited me with producing an argument “sure to live forever in the annals of sophistry.” I learned about the Sophists and recognize how this this term is used in a derogatory manner. It implies deception, and in the context of argument can refer to a well-crafted piece intended to appear logical but which actually represents falsehood. That is how you were essentially describing my post.
Let me tell you about a fallacy I learned of in my philosophical training which shares a basis with what we consider sophistry. Like sophistry, a straw-man argument creates an impression or appearance. It creates an impression or appearance of having refuted a proposition by placing a different proposition at the opposite end of a refutation. By imposing such a straw-man on someone else, and then refuting that straw-man, it gives the impression of having refuted the proposition that someone else has made.
When I wrote “Three Blind Mice Attempt Ecclesiology,” you responded with “I Disagree: Faithful Dissent.” You accused me of sophistry and then falsely attributed arguments to me in each of your first three sentences. The point of my most recent post entitled “Three Blind Mice Accept Understudy” is to identify which of those false attributions you are willing to retract.
You accuse me of producing an argument for “why Catholics who reject Church teaching aren’t really rejecting Church teaching.” Are you prepared to retract this? You accuse me of being “upset that conservative Catholics would like the modernist heretics to just apostasize and stop trying to undermine the Church from within.” Are you prepared to retract this? You accuse me of suggesting persons are being “unfaithful to the Magisterium for saying that the Magisterium must be obeyed.” Are you prepared to retract this?
You then attempt to identify how Catholic teaching comes in three levels, but you misinform your readers as to the nature of the first two levels (and don’t do much of a job with the third level either). This is a factual error on your part, and if you now have a better sense of the gradations of Church teaching then so much the better.
After this you identify how “the trick for beginning modernists is to push all the stuff that offends against modern androgynist utilitarianism into the third category, and then say that the third category are teachings we must “respect” but not necessarily believe.” Now, you do seem to associate me with empowering persons with such a trick since you speak of this in the context of how I defend, what you consider to be, the “counterintuitive claim” that, I believe, you have wrongly associated with me.
To repeat, I appreciate your response, but there are ways I will allow a person to speak of me, and there are ways I will not. Your original post speaks of me in ways I will not allow and hence before we can continue with what I believe could be a very productive conversation, I need you to identify which of your false attributions you are going to abandon, and which you maintain.
What I would request is a retraction of the three straw-men which, in turn, invalidates the accusation that I am empowering persons with a trick. I believe that such a retraction will be possible for you since you already have distanced yourself from the nonsense persons have written about me in the comments section of your post (you distance yourself when you most recently stated that you “don’t doubt [my] personal loyalty to Church teaching”).
“[Being a Christian] is not found in being right about homosexuality, women’s ordination or artificial methods of regulating birth.”
I realize the point of this paragraph is to counter Bonald’s assertion that you have have “produced an argument … for why Catholics who reject Church teachings aren’t really rejecting Church teaching”. I would just rephrase Bonald’s assertion: What you seem to be arguing is that Catholics who reject [some] Church teaching[s] aren’t really rejecting Christianity.
I would argue that whether or not one assents to specific propositions of the Faith does have a bearing on the extent to which one is a Christian; defining “Christian” as a follower (not merely an “encounterer”) of Christ. If, then, Christ sets up a Church with authority to teach in his name, then the degree to which one accepts or rejects the things taught by that Church in his name, gives an indication of the degree to which one is actually following him.
You seem to be saying that a Catholic may be following Jesus “in essentials” even while rejecting teachings on “peripheral” issues like homosexuality, women’s ordination or artificial birth control, and therefore remain a good Christian. I’m not saying that one can’t do both those things. But it does seem that following Christ ought to be an all-or-nothing proposition. I wonder how Christ would react to someone who approached him wanting to be a follower, while harboring reservations on certain matters. Didn’t Christ say that he who would be faithful in small matters would also be faithful in big ones; but also the contrary? (Lk. 16:10) Can someone who rejects the peripherals honestly embrace the essentials with his whole heart?
Agellius,
You’re correct in a way but history gives cases of Church teaching that are now considered incorrect (interest on a loan being sinful) or now considered downright evil (burning heretics supported in Exsurge Domine by Pope Leo X / enslaving those who resist the gospel and taking their assets affirmed in Romanus Pontifex by Pope Nicholas V, mid 4th large par. and affirmed in writing by 3 subsequent Popes). The early sexual view of Clement of Alexandria, Lactantius, and Jerome that sex was ONLY for procreation turns out to have been pure Stoicism not apostolic and is now rejected by the acceptance of the use of the infertile periods which only became explicit in the Church in 1853 when the Bishop of Amiens asked the Vatican if Catholics could use the infertile times discovered scientifically in 1845 by Pouchet.
For me certain issues are from Christ clearly when they are in scripture or are clearly infallible in line with canon 749-3. Thus for me gay sexual acts will never be affirmed by the Church because of Romans chapter 1; but artificial birth control cannot be plausibly called infallible in the universal ordinary magisterium due to prominent theologians like Karl Rahner and Bernard Haring having dissented in 1968 and having suffered no censure from the Church in the ensuing decades … a diachronic consensus was broken and Rome did not censure the break.
So it is a mix. Not everything that historically passes for Church teaching … comes from Christ. God needed Catholics to dissent against Romanus Pontifex by Pope Nicholas V but few probably knew of it in 1454 … no news media then … rumor was the news media.
I guess that question centers around how one views the Church. Is it about following and believing everything without question like good automatrons, or is it about relationships that is about lovingly drawing people forth to grow in their relationship with God and the Church community. I agree, the idea of “If you don’t agree with this, leave or we will throw you out…that at it’s very core doesn’t seem to be Christ’s way, and if it isn’t his way, it surely isn’t the way of his body on earth.