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13 Comments
  1. Ronald King permalink
    January 11, 2011 7:02 pm

    Excellent Henry. All of us are responsible for this violence. Each one of us contributes to the culture of death but, like you said most are blind to their contribution.
    I doubt that very many people will understand what you are saying here and that is a tragedy.

  2. Ronald King permalink
    January 11, 2011 7:47 pm

    I see abortion, as I have said before, as the end result of the suffering and violence in the world that is directly traumatizing women into a deep seated fear of bringing children into the world. In addition, women have always been objectified and since that is the case how can a woman without grace have an understanding that the developing child in the womb is a real human being?
    An object can only see other objects and if the other object cannot be seen it then becomes less human than the viewing object.

  3. Jordan permalink
    January 11, 2011 8:43 pm

    Thank you Henry for the very thought provoking piece. This is one quotation that interests me:

    At the basis of our current culture is the depersonalization of the person, turning them into objects: they are turned to mere ciphers, objectified examples of virtues or vices we like or despise, while the person as a whole is rejected – the person is no longer seen as necessary or valuable, and so easily dismissed.

    This is the heart of the fascism that the United States could fall into if it remains unaware of creeping dehumanization. The rhetoric from both the left and right can emulate the adulation of a Leader, Ideology, or Creed over humanity and personhood. This is true both for abortion and the various attempts to defeat same-sex marriage through the defamation of gay people. Your excellent example of the treatment of the poor and destitude in the US could mirror the dehumanization of many different groups of people.

    Whenever I see a religious ideologue quote 1st Corinthians or Leviticus to condemn the subhuman-du-jour, I always wonder: to whom will the preacher appeal when he or she is demonized?

    • January 11, 2011 11:02 pm

      Thank you Jordan.

      When writing this, I was not sure if I would be clear or not, since I wrote it as a stream of consciousness piece. But I am glad to see you and Ron appreciate what I wrote and said. And yes, I think the whole depersonalization, on all levels, from all sides, in different ways is contributing to the overall destruction around us. It is quite sad. We become cut up pieces of persons, not persons. And, I admit, the example of the poor came in part through my reading of a couple books on medieval society and its treatment of the poor — the good and the bad of it. I saw so much which is similar to the present society and it made me sad to see how we have come full circle.

  4. digbydolben permalink
    January 12, 2011 2:41 am

    I think that THIS makes a great deal of sense:

    http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/11/before-hatred-comes-fear/?hp

    And I think we should ALL examine our consciences in reading it.

    According to Mr. Wright, the fault isn’t in the “crosshairs,” the violent metaphors, the vitriolic speech, but, instead, in the attempts to read others out of the community, to declare them the subversive “other.”

    I think that that also goes on here, at Vox Nova, in terms of attempts to “read others out” of the Church, on a variety of issues, particularly abortion, birth control and homosexuality. This demonization has got to stop, and I trust that Obama in Tucson will take more responsibility than Palin has, thus far, in making it stop. (Though I’m not giving up on her, either, because I think she has the smarts to know that she hasn’t a snowball’s chance in Hell in 2012, if she doesn’t own up to SOME of the responsibility.)

    • January 12, 2011 5:35 am

      I am not sure what you mean by “reading others out.”

      • digbydolben permalink
        January 12, 2011 6:52 am

        Telling them that they don’t “belong” for this or that reason of non-conformity or disagreement. It works with Churches and it works with national identities.

      • January 12, 2011 7:08 am

        I would like to refer you to this post:

        http://vox-nova.com/2009/05/05/because-the-law-forbids-everything-becomes-permitted/

        It’s because I fear, if you start saying there can be no structures which define who is or is not X, there ends up being no X. Those structures are needed. What those structures are one can debate, but to think things would be better without any definitions only ends up a mess.

    • David Cruz-Uribe, SFO permalink*
      January 12, 2011 8:55 am

      What’s not transient, unfortunately, is the technological trend that drives much of this. It isn’t just that people can now build a cocoon of cable channels and Web sites that insulates them from inconvenient facts. It’s also that this cocoon insulates them from other Americans — including the groups of Americans who, inside the cocoon, are being depicted as evil aliens. It’s easy to buy into the demonization of people you never communicate with, and whose views you never see depicted by anyone other than their adversaries.

      This is the passage that I see as most powerful in the post by DigbyDolben. I agree with Henry that we need to be clear on “not X” in order to preserve “X”. But at the same time, we must remember that those who hold “not X”—in the Church, in the public sphere—are equally loved by God, and we are commanded, prior to any other duty as Christians, to love them as God loves them. That is missing in so much of our discourse. You only need to review the thread that Morning’s Minion just shut down to see this in action on our own blog.

      I have always favored geographical parishes over “affinity” parishes because they forced me to deal with real people, rather than ideas. I don’t drive across town to the local Francican parish (even though I am a Franciscan) precisely because it draws people from 60+ zip codes based on its “liberal” identity. I’ve met many of the parishoners—a nice bunch. But they are now in a position to treat their conservative brothers and sisters as an impersonal “other” and this tendency seems irresistible.

      The internet and cable TV now creates virtual affinity parishes: do you read dotcommonweal and NCR, or do you watch EWTN? We no longer love one another as people because we never meet them as people: they have become an intellectual other. My Franciscan fraternity suffers from this and it strains the bonds of community in a group called to a life as brothers and sisters of penance.

      • January 12, 2011 10:12 am

        David,

        I agree, there is a difference between finding out and knowing what the Church is, and indeed, as I said, there is room to discuss those structures, and then saying what is not the Church is not to be loved. Rather, the Church’s mission is to be servants to the non-Church, not to hide from them but to love them as they need the love, to be Christ to them, so to speak. So I fully agree with what you said to add to what I said — it is the problem, though, that people forget what it means to be in the Church, and that is why they take it the wrong way, showing, imo, many of them have through their own sin, fallen out of the Church (as the parable of the Last Judgment shows, many who think they are within might find they fell out, and many who didn’t know they were, find out they are).

      • digbydolben permalink
        January 12, 2011 11:09 am

        But, Henry, doesn’t it then follow that we actually DON’T KNOW, in this life, who’s “in” and who’s “out,” and that, therefore, we can’t really “read” ANYBODY “out” permanently?

      • January 12, 2011 12:56 pm

        True, we can’t and should not read people our permanently; however, that too is a different question. Remember St Paul in Corinthians.

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