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	<title>Comments on: Why Private Insurance Companies Love Abortion</title>
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	<link>http://vox-nova.com/2010/03/08/why-private-insurance-companies-love-abortion/</link>
	<description>Catholic perspectives on culture, society, and politics</description>
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		<title>By: jallen</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2010/03/08/why-private-insurance-companies-love-abortion/#comment-74578</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jallen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Mar 2010 02:01:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=12068#comment-74578</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have been in the insurance industry for almost 20. Not one time have I ever seen a plan that covered abortion. Who is writing this article? I have come across hundreds of benefit packages and again have never seen it covered. Where are you getting your information from?

American press has already been caught in a lie by stating that 90% of private insurance companies cover abortion.

Abortion seems to be the political topic of the past 40 years. Why does almost every political decision seem to revolve around this barbaric procedure? Lord have mercy in the USA.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have been in the insurance industry for almost 20. Not one time have I ever seen a plan that covered abortion. Who is writing this article? I have come across hundreds of benefit packages and again have never seen it covered. Where are you getting your information from?</p>
<p>American press has already been caught in a lie by stating that 90% of private insurance companies cover abortion.</p>
<p>Abortion seems to be the political topic of the past 40 years. Why does almost every political decision seem to revolve around this barbaric procedure? Lord have mercy in the USA.</p>
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		<title>By: DarwinCatholic</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2010/03/08/why-private-insurance-companies-love-abortion/#comment-73474</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[DarwinCatholic]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 23:09:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=12068#comment-73474</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[- As I &lt;a href=&quot;http://the-american-catholic.com/2010/02/19/health-insurance-and-abortion/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;wrote a little while back&lt;/a&gt; it hardly seems fair to say that the pro-life movement has been actively ignoring private health insurance in regards to abortion when their primary focus has been on restricting (and eventually banning) abortion entirely.  Obviously, if they succeed in this, then any insurance coverage of abortion becomes null.  They&#039;re simply taking a different approach.  Also, short of encouraging employers to demand plans which don&#039;t cover abortions (which as ctd points out Catholic organizations have led the way on) and seeing to ban private insurance coverage of abortion (which has been achieved in several states) it&#039;s a lot harder to influence what&#039;s covered in private policies than it is in a Federal program to set criteria for an insurance exchange.  Which is why, obviously, this came up now.

- I don&#039;t think your suggestion that insurance companies &quot;love&quot; abortion because it&#039;s cheaper than birth makes a whole lot of sense.  Insurance companies don&#039;t have to make their profits by digging in their heels and refusing to pay for procedures that people want.  They can also (and do) raise rates as people&#039;s usage patterns change.  So if starting tomorrow the abortion rate fell to zero, it might result in slightly higher insurance rates next year, but I don&#039;t think we&#039;d see insurance companies begging people to abort.  (Indeed, I would challenge you to provide links to examples of insurance companies pressuring people to abort.)  And indeed, in the long run, insurance companies make money because of enrollees.  If they kill all the enrollees, they make no money.  Population growth is in their favor.  This doesn&#039;t make them virtuous, but this &quot;insurance companies are eeeeeeevil&quot; routine doesn&#039;t make a whole lot of sense.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>- As I <a href="http://the-american-catholic.com/2010/02/19/health-insurance-and-abortion/" rel="nofollow">wrote a little while back</a> it hardly seems fair to say that the pro-life movement has been actively ignoring private health insurance in regards to abortion when their primary focus has been on restricting (and eventually banning) abortion entirely.  Obviously, if they succeed in this, then any insurance coverage of abortion becomes null.  They&#8217;re simply taking a different approach.  Also, short of encouraging employers to demand plans which don&#8217;t cover abortions (which as ctd points out Catholic organizations have led the way on) and seeing to ban private insurance coverage of abortion (which has been achieved in several states) it&#8217;s a lot harder to influence what&#8217;s covered in private policies than it is in a Federal program to set criteria for an insurance exchange.  Which is why, obviously, this came up now.</p>
<p>- I don&#8217;t think your suggestion that insurance companies &#8220;love&#8221; abortion because it&#8217;s cheaper than birth makes a whole lot of sense.  Insurance companies don&#8217;t have to make their profits by digging in their heels and refusing to pay for procedures that people want.  They can also (and do) raise rates as people&#8217;s usage patterns change.  So if starting tomorrow the abortion rate fell to zero, it might result in slightly higher insurance rates next year, but I don&#8217;t think we&#8217;d see insurance companies begging people to abort.  (Indeed, I would challenge you to provide links to examples of insurance companies pressuring people to abort.)  And indeed, in the long run, insurance companies make money because of enrollees.  If they kill all the enrollees, they make no money.  Population growth is in their favor.  This doesn&#8217;t make them virtuous, but this &#8220;insurance companies are eeeeeeevil&#8221; routine doesn&#8217;t make a whole lot of sense.</p>
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		<title>By: smf</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2010/03/08/why-private-insurance-companies-love-abortion/#comment-73457</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[smf]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 21:30:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=12068#comment-73457</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The idea that the prolife movement may have some shortcomings is not in any way a valid defense of the current health care insurance reform proposal(s).

The pro-life movement is admittely far from perfect.  It is not omnisicient.  It does not always think through every implication of every policy.  It is certainly at times influenced by the other political concerns of its members.

That does not mean it has been actively giving a pass to pro-abortion policies.  Rather, it may have made some mistakes in being too lenient and trusting of both government and business in the past.  That should be all the more reason for skepticism of the current government notion.

For my part I want no part of paying for anyone&#039;s abortions, contraception, embryonic stem cell anythings, artificial conceptions, or any of that stuff.  I don&#039;t want my taxes going to it, I don&#039;t want my pay or benefits going to it, and I don&#039;t want anyone else being made to pay for or do those tings.  I consider it a grave violation of human rights and dignity to be forced to pay for these things by the state, and I find being arm-twisted into it by a business to be equally unpalatable.

In any case, I for my part remain against this latest attempt, and while I do have pro-life arguments, and moral arguments, as part of my reasoning, quite frankly I am against it for economic, fiscal, financial, constitutional, and logistical reasons as well.

To my mind the current conscience protections are not sufficient for health care workers and health care entities.  I also do not see sufficient conscience protection for others involved, so as the customers.

I also think that eventually this plan will be used as a vehicle for expanding morally objectionable policies.  I strongly suspect it will be used both as justification and mechanism for things that every true Catholic would object to.  Admittedly this is a slippery-slope type argument, but such predictions are sometimes correct.

In any case, I see much that can be improved about the current system of health care and health care insurance.  I just happen to think that the current proposals are among the worst ways of doing it.  Quite frankly I think I would be more comfortable with a straight forward government take over of health care and single payer system.  At least that idea has some logical consistency, some hope of transparency, some slight accountability, and might actually work.  The current proposal is illogical (it often as not works against its own goals), it is not at all transparent to the average citizen, the perfect formula for shifting blame, and it probably won&#039;t work as advertised anyways.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The idea that the prolife movement may have some shortcomings is not in any way a valid defense of the current health care insurance reform proposal(s).</p>
<p>The pro-life movement is admittely far from perfect.  It is not omnisicient.  It does not always think through every implication of every policy.  It is certainly at times influenced by the other political concerns of its members.</p>
<p>That does not mean it has been actively giving a pass to pro-abortion policies.  Rather, it may have made some mistakes in being too lenient and trusting of both government and business in the past.  That should be all the more reason for skepticism of the current government notion.</p>
<p>For my part I want no part of paying for anyone&#8217;s abortions, contraception, embryonic stem cell anythings, artificial conceptions, or any of that stuff.  I don&#8217;t want my taxes going to it, I don&#8217;t want my pay or benefits going to it, and I don&#8217;t want anyone else being made to pay for or do those tings.  I consider it a grave violation of human rights and dignity to be forced to pay for these things by the state, and I find being arm-twisted into it by a business to be equally unpalatable.</p>
<p>In any case, I for my part remain against this latest attempt, and while I do have pro-life arguments, and moral arguments, as part of my reasoning, quite frankly I am against it for economic, fiscal, financial, constitutional, and logistical reasons as well.</p>
<p>To my mind the current conscience protections are not sufficient for health care workers and health care entities.  I also do not see sufficient conscience protection for others involved, so as the customers.</p>
<p>I also think that eventually this plan will be used as a vehicle for expanding morally objectionable policies.  I strongly suspect it will be used both as justification and mechanism for things that every true Catholic would object to.  Admittedly this is a slippery-slope type argument, but such predictions are sometimes correct.</p>
<p>In any case, I see much that can be improved about the current system of health care and health care insurance.  I just happen to think that the current proposals are among the worst ways of doing it.  Quite frankly I think I would be more comfortable with a straight forward government take over of health care and single payer system.  At least that idea has some logical consistency, some hope of transparency, some slight accountability, and might actually work.  The current proposal is illogical (it often as not works against its own goals), it is not at all transparent to the average citizen, the perfect formula for shifting blame, and it probably won&#8217;t work as advertised anyways.</p>
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		<title>By: M.Z.</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2010/03/08/why-private-insurance-companies-love-abortion/#comment-73416</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[M.Z.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 05:33:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=12068#comment-73416</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Employers, i.e. mostly self-insured plans*, are not regulated under the Exchange.  It is very rare for an employer to recover under aggregate insurance, which is what Kevin is referring.  Employers mostly recover when employees hit what are referred to as specific deductibles that can be from $15,000 to over $100,000.  And then there are lasers and other fun things to add complications.  Self-insured plans subscribe to networks in their own right; they don&#039;t get access through the re-insurer.  What this has to with MM&#039;s post escapes me, though this gives me an opportunity to show that I do know what I&#039;m talking about.  

* I haven&#039;t looked at how fully-insured plans are effected by the exchange.  If I were to speculate, I would guess they would be treated like their self-insured brethren.  If your company employs over 300, they are almost always self-insured.  If they employ under 100, they are almost always fully-insured.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Employers, i.e. mostly self-insured plans*, are not regulated under the Exchange.  It is very rare for an employer to recover under aggregate insurance, which is what Kevin is referring.  Employers mostly recover when employees hit what are referred to as specific deductibles that can be from $15,000 to over $100,000.  And then there are lasers and other fun things to add complications.  Self-insured plans subscribe to networks in their own right; they don&#8217;t get access through the re-insurer.  What this has to with MM&#8217;s post escapes me, though this gives me an opportunity to show that I do know what I&#8217;m talking about.  </p>
<p>* I haven&#8217;t looked at how fully-insured plans are effected by the exchange.  If I were to speculate, I would guess they would be treated like their self-insured brethren.  If your company employs over 300, they are almost always self-insured.  If they employ under 100, they are almost always fully-insured.</p>
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		<title>By: Morning's Minion</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2010/03/08/why-private-insurance-companies-love-abortion/#comment-73412</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Morning's Minion]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 03:37:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=12068#comment-73412</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[George, Medicare covers disability as well as the elderly. And &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.bcbsm.com/ma/pdf/MA_PFFS_abortion.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; is an example of Medicare Advantage covering abortion.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>George, Medicare covers disability as well as the elderly. And <a href="http://www.bcbsm.com/ma/pdf/MA_PFFS_abortion.pdf" rel="nofollow">here</a> is an example of Medicare Advantage covering abortion.</p>
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		<title>By: George</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2010/03/08/why-private-insurance-companies-love-abortion/#comment-73411</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[George]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 03:33:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=12068#comment-73411</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Why would it matter that Medicare Advantage Plans allow coverage for aboution?  I&#039;ve been in the Medicare Market for 30 years, and have never known of a Medicare recipient to need an abortion.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why would it matter that Medicare Advantage Plans allow coverage for aboution?  I&#8217;ve been in the Medicare Market for 30 years, and have never known of a Medicare recipient to need an abortion.</p>
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		<title>By: Morning's Minion</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2010/03/08/why-private-insurance-companies-love-abortion/#comment-73409</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Morning's Minion]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 03:00:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=12068#comment-73409</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[John, as a friend of mine said yesterday, we&#039;ve already won. The fact that we are debating Stupak vs. Nelson, and the that the latter is the worst outcomes tells us we have won.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John, as a friend of mine said yesterday, we&#8217;ve already won. The fact that we are debating Stupak vs. Nelson, and the that the latter is the worst outcomes tells us we have won.</p>
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		<title>By: Kurt</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2010/03/08/why-private-insurance-companies-love-abortion/#comment-73408</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kurt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 02:58:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=12068#comment-73408</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;North Dakota, Kentucky, Idaho, Oklahoma, and Missouri, by the way, have comprehensive bans on abortion coverage in private policies.&lt;/i&gt;

Which would be nullifed by the Republican plan to allow sale of insurance policies across state lines.  And the Pro-Life objection to this GOP proposal is where?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>North Dakota, Kentucky, Idaho, Oklahoma, and Missouri, by the way, have comprehensive bans on abortion coverage in private policies.</i></p>
<p>Which would be nullifed by the Republican plan to allow sale of insurance policies across state lines.  And the Pro-Life objection to this GOP proposal is where?</p>
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		<title>By: JohnMcG</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2010/03/08/why-private-insurance-companies-love-abortion/#comment-73406</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[JohnMcG]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 02:41:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=12068#comment-73406</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Again, I wish that instead of this tired &quot;hypocrisy&quot; argument, you pushed this as a positive for health care reform -- it give us a single pressure point to stop the coverage of abortion.  

Kevin&#039;s point underscores it -- isn&#039;t it better that we can lobby for a pro-life health care than all of us have to quit our jobs?

Let&#039;s go for win-win.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Again, I wish that instead of this tired &#8220;hypocrisy&#8221; argument, you pushed this as a positive for health care reform &#8212; it give us a single pressure point to stop the coverage of abortion.  </p>
<p>Kevin&#8217;s point underscores it &#8212; isn&#8217;t it better that we can lobby for a pro-life health care than all of us have to quit our jobs?</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s go for win-win.</p>
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		<title>By: Rodak</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2010/03/08/why-private-insurance-companies-love-abortion/#comment-73396</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rodak]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 23:41:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=12068#comment-73396</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Can you direct me to an insurance company promotion of abortion?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can you direct me to an insurance company promotion of abortion?</p>
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		<title>By: Morning's Minion</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2010/03/08/why-private-insurance-companies-love-abortion/#comment-73394</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Morning's Minion]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 23:11:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=12068#comment-73394</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That&#039;s a fair point, Kevin, but I think it is more accurate to describe it as negotiation between the insurance company and the entity being insured (the whole point of the Exchanges is to improve the bargaining relationship between the 2 sides). So, yes, the company might be to blame, but it&#039;s certainly in the interests of the insurance company to cover abortion as well as childcare costs.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s a fair point, Kevin, but I think it is more accurate to describe it as negotiation between the insurance company and the entity being insured (the whole point of the Exchanges is to improve the bargaining relationship between the 2 sides). So, yes, the company might be to blame, but it&#8217;s certainly in the interests of the insurance company to cover abortion as well as childcare costs.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2010/03/08/why-private-insurance-companies-love-abortion/#comment-73388</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kevin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 22:19:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=12068#comment-73388</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You guys really don&#039;t understand how employer driven health insurance works. Most companies are self insured. Meaning they pay an insurance company for access to a network and in some cases billing. They then decide what to charge their employees for this sevice based on union contracts, market conditions, recruiting,... Along with the price, the company decides on what coverage to offer, using the same decision points. When a claim comes in the company pays it out of the pool it allocated for employee health insurace. Most companies will then reinsure any overage with a reinsurer. Meaning that if total claims for a year over say $1,000,000 then they make a claim against the reinsurer. 

Your target in this case really needs to be companies that offer abortion coverage. That is the employer. And if you want to be self righteous about it, ask Catholics to quit any employer that offers abortion coverage. But the nearness to evil is even further removed in the business health insurance self insured model, since the premiums go to the company to offer insurance, not pooled in some bank account with other employees to pay for abortions. 

This attack against pro-lifers is really a stretch. Why is your ire and self righteousness not against Democrats for failing to pass a Stupak like amendment in the Senate?  That is all they would need to do to get the USCCB and pro-lifers on board.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You guys really don&#8217;t understand how employer driven health insurance works. Most companies are self insured. Meaning they pay an insurance company for access to a network and in some cases billing. They then decide what to charge their employees for this sevice based on union contracts, market conditions, recruiting,&#8230; Along with the price, the company decides on what coverage to offer, using the same decision points. When a claim comes in the company pays it out of the pool it allocated for employee health insurace. Most companies will then reinsure any overage with a reinsurer. Meaning that if total claims for a year over say $1,000,000 then they make a claim against the reinsurer. </p>
<p>Your target in this case really needs to be companies that offer abortion coverage. That is the employer. And if you want to be self righteous about it, ask Catholics to quit any employer that offers abortion coverage. But the nearness to evil is even further removed in the business health insurance self insured model, since the premiums go to the company to offer insurance, not pooled in some bank account with other employees to pay for abortions. </p>
<p>This attack against pro-lifers is really a stretch. Why is your ire and self righteousness not against Democrats for failing to pass a Stupak like amendment in the Senate?  That is all they would need to do to get the USCCB and pro-lifers on board.</p>
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