Called to Dialogue, Not Polemics
One of the things which never fails to annoy me is the fundamentalist, Jack-Chick like way many Catholics engage Islam. Since we have had a long history of people over-simplifying the teachings of the Church, using quotes way out of context to create the impression that Church leaders and doctrine are all about idolatry and the cruel manipulation of the peoples of the world for various evil agendas, we should know how easy it is to misconstrue the faith of others and work so as we do not do so. But when it comes to Islam, despite what the Church herself teaches, this often does not happen. We see many people working to present Islam as pure evil. We see a dualistic all-or-nothing hermeneutic requiring polemicists to completely and utterly reject everything found in Islam and to present its teachings in the most twisted fashion possible. Such polemicists want to justify hate for Muslims so that they can next encourage a military response to Islam. Of course, this is far from Catholic, but with the lack of proper catechesis, this kind of presentation on Islam easily becomes popular and followed by otherwise good-intentioned people (not that the good intentions saves them from their own errors!).
There are all kinds of discussions about Islam in popular literature which are completely erroneous. If people counter such false-witnesses with actual Islamic literature, two things happen: one is accused of being a Muslim and it is then said Muslims are told to lie so that nothing that a Muslim can be said can be believed. The only lie here is the notion that Islam requires Muslims to lie — and the manipulation is not in Islam, but the so-called Christians who want a war against Islam at any price — even at the perversion of truth! If one wants to know about Islam, don’t study the polemics written by non-Muslims or former Muslims, but talk to and get to know Muslims and study their own literature. This, after all, is what we tell people who criticize Catholicism.
Sadly, because so many people are unreasonably hostile to anything found in Islam, they end up creating all kinds of scandal. Their lack of charity is apparent to all. They would be upset if people took their methodology and applied it to the Christian faith. The Koran is a highly contextual work, and texts in it often are dealing with particular issues and not universals. Those who want to use the Koran to present Islam as entirely evil will look to particular texts and universalize them, and ignore the progressive revelation and different situations contained within it. The problem, of course, is if one did the same with Christian Scriptures, one could much more easily turn the Holy Bible into a book written by an evil monster (which is, after all, what Marcion did with the Torah). Genocide and deception can be shown as being encouraged in the Torah. While there might be allegorical ways to read them, most Christians look at them with some sort of historical context. If they can do that with the Torah, why can’t they do it with the Koran? We don’t need polemics, we need honest assessment of each other’s faith. We have enough authentic theological disagreement with Islam without the need to create a straw man interpretation of it. And the less said about ad hominems the better. This is exactly what I try to explain to people, though often when I do so, and when I quote ecclesial documents on Islam showing how we are to respect Muslims, I end up being told I must be a Muslim! How odd that papal declarations sound like Islamic teaching to people who would like to attack Islam! No wonder it is when I present papal declarations that I get the greatest ire from many would-be Catholic apologists, because I show their way of denigration is not the way of Catholicism. The Catholic Church teaches us that we are to have a respect for Islam and Muslims. We are told we must work to get beyond the errors of the past, the errors of the polemical mindset, and find ways of real cooperation with Muslims for the betterment of the world. In doing so, we are not saying we agree with the teachings of Islam (though many of them we would agree with!), but that we believe in Christ who said the way we are to engage with anyone is in love. We are called to show respect and to treat others as we would like to be treated, even if they do not treat us that way in return. We must realize that what others do to us does not excuse us to be anything less than Christ-like in return.
For those wondering where I get this from Catholic teaching, here is a brief sample of what has recently been said to Christians or Muslims about Muslim-Christian relations:
Nostra Aetate
The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.
Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom. [1]
Pope John Paul II
Christians and Muslims, in general we have badly understood each other, and sometimes, in the past, we have opposed and even exhausted each other in polemics and in wars.
I believe that, today, God invites us to change our old practices. We must respect each other, and also we must stimulate each other in good works on the path of God. [2]
Christians and Muslims agree that in religious matters there can be no coercion. We are committed to teaching attitudes of openness and respect towards the followers of other religions. But religion can be misused, and it is surely the duty of religious leaders to guard against this. Above all, whenever violence is done in the name of religion, we must make it clear to everyone that in such instances we are not dealing with true religion. For the Almighty cannot tolerate the destruction of his own image in his children. From this place in the heart of West Africa I appeal to all Muslims, just as I have appealed to my Brother Bishops and all Catholics: let friendship and cooperation be our inspiration! Let us work together for a new era of solidarity and joint service in facing the enormous challenge of building a better, more just and more humane world! [3]
In today’s world where God is tragically forgotten, Christians and Muslims are called in one spirit of love to defend and always promote human dignity, moral values and freedom. The common pilgrimage to eternity must be expressed in prayer, fasting and charity, but also in joint efforts for peace and justice, for human advancement and the protection of the environment. By walking together on the path of reconciliation and renouncing in humble submission to the divine will any form of violence as a means of resolving differences, the two religions will be able to offer a sign of hope, radiating in the world the wisdom and mercy of that one God who created and governs the human family.[4]
Pope Benedict XI
Dear friends, I am profoundly convinced that we must not yield to the negative pressures in our midst, but must affirm the values of mutual respect, solidarity and peace. The life of every human being is sacred, both for Christians and for Muslims. There is plenty of scope for us to act together in the service of fundamental moral values.
The dignity of the person and the defence of the rights which that dignity confers must represent the goal of every social endeavour and of every effort to bring it to fruition. This message is conveyed to us unmistakably by the quiet but clear voice of conscience. It is a message which must be heeded and communicated to others: should it ever cease to find an echo in peoples’ hearts, the world would be exposed to the darkness of a new barbarism.
Only through recognition of the centrality of the person can a common basis for understanding be found, one which enables us to move beyond cultural conflicts and which neutralizes the disruptive power of ideologies.[5]
Dear friends, I am profoundly convinced that in the current world situation it is imperative that Christians and Muslims engage with one another in order to address the numerous challenges that present themselves to humanity, especially those concerning the defence and promotion of the dignity of the human person and of the rights ensuing from that dignity. When threats mount up against people and against peace, by recognizing the central character of the human person and by working with perseverance to see that human life is always respected, Christians and Muslims manifest their obedience to the Creator, who wishes all people to live in the dignity that he has bestowed upon them.[6]
For this reason we cannot fail to be concerned that today, with increasing insistency, some maintain that religion fails in its claim to be, by nature, a builder of unity and harmony, an expression of communion between persons and with God. Indeed some assert that religion is necessarily a cause of division in our world; and so they argue that the less attention given to religion in the public sphere the better. Certainly, the contradiction of tensions and divisions between the followers of different religious traditions, sadly, cannot be denied. However, is it not also the case that often it is the ideological manipulation of religion, sometimes for political ends, that is the real catalyst for tension and division, and at times even violence in society? In the face of this situation, where the opponents of religion seek not simply to silence its voice but to replace it with their own, the need for believers to be true to their principles and beliefs is felt all the more keenly. Muslims and Christians, precisely because of the burden of our common history so often marked by misunderstanding, must today strive to be known and recognized as worshippers of God faithful to prayer, eager to uphold and live by the Almighty’s decrees, merciful and compassionate, consistent in bearing witness to all that is true and good, and ever mindful of the common origin and dignity of all human persons, who remain at the apex of God’s creative design for the world and for history. [7]
Cardinal Arinze
I am addressing to you this message fully conscious that we, both Christians and Muslims, have not always loved and respected one another as God requires of us. Unfortunately this lack of mutual love is not only a fact of past history, but is also part of present reality. Nevertheless it is important at the same time to note and to make known the numerous situations where Christians and Muslims live peacefully and fruitfully together. Such examples encourage us to do all we can so that Christians and Muslims everywhere may live together in this way. We are invited to examine the nature of our relations, both in the past and in the present, and above all to make a decision to become more and more what God calls us to be: witnesses of his goodness and mercy, especially towards the weaker members of society. [8]
What can we do, Christians and Muslims, together with the believers belonging to other religions and other people of good will, to ensure that we make good use of these new means at our disposal?
Can we not work together to protect the most important human values which are threatened by a world in continual transformation ? In the first place comes the right to life, to be protected from conception right up to natural death. For life comes from God and it is to Him that it must return, when He wills. Life is a most precious gift from God, the precondition for all other divine gifts. Next comes the dignity of the human person and the rights which flow from it; these we must promote for all. Social justice, peace and freedom are also major values that are necessary for a life worthy of human beings, a life which gives glory to God who created it.[9]
Jean-Louis Cardinal Tauran
To achieve this, I appeal to you with all my heart to heed my words, so that, by means of encounters and exchanges, Christians and Muslims will work together in mutual respect for peace and for a better future for all people; it will provide an example for the young people of today to follow and imitate. They will then have a renewed confidence in society and will see the advantage in belonging and taking part in its transformation. Education and example will also be a source of hope in the future for them.[10]
[1] Nostra Aetate 3. (http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html)
[2] Pope John Paul II, Address to Young Muslims in Casablanca 10, 1985 (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/1985/august/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_19850819_giovani-stadio-casablanca_en.html )
[3] Pope John Paul II, Meeting with Muslim Leaders, March 22, 1998 (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/travels/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_22031998_nigeria-muslim_en.html)
[4] Pope John Paul II, General Audience May 5, 1999 (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/1999/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_05051999_en.html)
[5] Pope Benedict XVI, 20th World Youth Day Meeting with Some Muslim Communities, 2005 (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2005/august/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20050820_meeting-muslims_en.html)
[6] Pope Benedict XVI, Address to the Ambassadors of Countries with a Muslim Majority and to the Representatives of the Muslim Communities in Italy, 2006 (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2006/september/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20060925_ambasciatori-paesi-arabi_en.html)
[7] Pope Benedict XVI, Meeting with Muslim Religious Leaders, May 9, 2009 (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2009/may/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20090509_capi-musulmani_en.html)
[8] Cardinal Francis Arinze, Pontifical Council for Inter-Religious Dialogue Message for Ramadan 1999 (http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_08011999_ramadan_en.html)
[9] Cardinal Francis Arinze, Pontifical Council for Inter-Religious Dialogue Message for Ramadan 2002 (http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_20011129_ramadan2002_en.html)
[10] Jean-Louis Cardinal Tauran, Pontifical Council for Inter-religious Dialogue Message for Ramadan 2007 (http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_20070928_ramadan2007_en.html)
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Since we have had a long history of people over-simplifying the teachings of the Church, using quotes way out of context to create the impression that Church leaders and doctrine are all about idolatry and the cruel manipulation of the peoples of the world for various evil agendas, we should know how easy it is to misconstrue the faith of others and work so as we do not do so.
Exactly.
An excellent and much-needed post. There is a rich Muslim literature about Jesus, and Christians would do well–especially in these times–to read it.
Rodak
Thanks. I felt the need especially after being told I must be a Muslim to a Catholic when I quoted Pope John Paul II on Islam!
I often recommend the book, The Muslim Jesus by Khaladi as a good place to begin one’s exploration of Islamic thought on Jesus if people are interested in that topic. It is very rich, and important, as you point out. It’s a good way to begin dialogue with Islam (though not the only way). I cannot tell you how many times I’ve surprised Christians when I told them Muslims believe Jesus is the Christ, sinless, born of the ever-Virgin Mary, and that he will come again to judge the living and the dead. They always tell me “Muslims can’t believe Jesus is the Messiah, because they don’t believe he is God.” It shows how little Christians know what it meant for Jesus to be the Messiah. Muslims certainly can help them explore that!
Yes. Muslims have much more reverence for both Jesus and Mary than do, for instance, Jews. Yet the Jews have pretty much been given a pass–if only recently–on that shortcoming by Christendom. May we soon see the day when this good will is also extended to the Muslim world.
I think that many, if not most, Christians think that Muslims worship Mohammed, which is not the case. Jesus can, in fact, be said to out-rank The Prophet at the End of Time. Jesus just does not have the day-to-day role in Islam that He necessarily has for Christians. In Islam, that daily role is taken by the Holy Koran, which was revealed by God, through the angel Gabriel, to Mohammed.
At least this is my understanding. I welcome correction by those more knowledgeable than I concerning Islam.
There are debates in Islam on the positions of Jesus and Mohammad. Some have said Jesus is as close to God as is possible without being God (showing the Nestorian/Arian connections to early Islam), while others, of course, put Mohammad in that position. That, of course, is in the Middle East. In India one gets all kinds of interesting ideas, some of which are not liked by most of Islam (Mohammad is the incarnation of Brahma, for example), but nonetheless, it is a kind of Islam and it must be understood in the continuity of Islam even if a minority position. Certainly in Islam, Jesus doesn’t have the soteriological role we see in Christianity, and not the incarnation, but as you say, Jews get a pass for much less. And I’ve said that many times to people. It’s not that I want people to return to attacks on the Jews, but, as you would guess, I want people to appreciate the closeness of Islam (even if not the same).
Henry–
Thank you for the interesting insights. I hope that your post will prompt some who have never done so to look into Islam more deeply.
Rodak
You are welcome. Yes, it would be good if people saw the point and started to read the writings of Muslims to get to know the real Islam.
I recall right after 9/11 there were a lot of calls for dialogue, even from the Bush administration, that got drowned out by the war clamor.
Now that the hysteria has died down somewhat, it’s good to see efforts to restart the process.
Great post, Henry. Thanks.
Good stuff Henry.
Thanks for sharing.
I have no respect for Islam or Muslims. And I agree with Marcion on the Old Testament and believe that his Gospel and Apostolicon were the truth but our present NT has been compromised by the Catholics mixing the OT god into it.
Some of you must have your heads in the sand. Muslim believe that Christ was a mere man. If Muslim ever become a majority in countries where they are a minority, see if you are allowed to openly practice Christianity. There never can be toleration by Muslims if they want to tell you the truth.
Harry I suggest you read my other post from the weekend.
I agree with the overall message of the post that Islam is to be approached with respect. I do not agree with the following statement:
The Koran is a highly contextual work, and texts in it often are dealing with particular issues and not universals. Those who want to use the Koran to present Islam as entirely evil will look to particular texts and universalize them, and ignore the progressive revelation and different situations contained within it
In Sunni and, in a slightly different manner, in Shiite Islam the texts are not dealt with in a “highly contextual” manner. The normal Islamic method for understanding their texts is indeed to “look to particular texts and universalize them.” the historical context is not seen as being very relevant to understanding the text. To understand a great part of Islam, and especially the contemporary movements, this non contextual approach is a correct method to adopt. reading Islamic texts with Christian methods is not useless, but it does not help us to understand how the major schools of Islam have read these texts.
The modern schools of interpretation such as the Salafi school, the Wahabi school and other are well supported by tradition exegesis and law, especially the Hanbalite school.
Fr. Vincent Nagle, Jerusalem
Fr. Vincent T. Nagle,
Some of my remarks (especially the issue of context) came from an Ayatollah I studied under. He gave considerable examples within the Koran as to why it needs to be interpreted in context (including criticisms of Arabs which, if universalized, would be interesting to say the least). I’ve studied Islamic texts before then, as well — and from a variety of sources (you will see this question was significant in the Khudai Khidmatgar movement — Badshah Khan would deal with that issue to overcome many cultural accretions).
I agree that you will get people who don’t contextualize is true, but that is also true with the Bible. It is probably the most common approach to each by the non-scholar, I would also agree. The fact is, however, Islam is not univocal, and even those who take a simple approach to the text (like all people with all texts) do engage it and interpret it, and it never is just a simple “reflection from” the text itself. But if one looks at Islamic tradition, you will indeed see the debates within Islam go along the lines of interpretation and context — this is not just a modern phenomenon. There are more schools of interpretation than the ones you mentioned, and indeed, Wahabi seems to be very much influenced by Orientalism (but I am sure you know this). But I think we might be talking past each other, since I am looking at the whole of Islam and its history and tradition, while you are focused on some important and influential groups, ones which do indeed show fundamentalism and the fundamentalist approach to Scripture (and yes, you mentioned the legal tradition which has become quite influential of late, but of course, it was also this fundamentalist approach which worked to limit much which went before it, that did deal with these specific issues in Islam). But there are also other modern movements, such as what we find in Tariq Ramadan in Europe, to Muhammad Sa`id al-`Ashmawy in Egypt, to Fethullah Gulen in Turkey (just as examples).
But I would also say — thank you for coming here — and I hope God continues to bless your work in Jerusalem!
Complexity raises its ugly head. The hope would be, (to my mind) that if the geo-political strife can finally be resolved, then it might be that those Muslim sectarians who are currently interpreting the Koran in such a way as to promote political goals, would turn around and begin using it to promote spiritual goals. It will probably always be true that Muslims will expect the Koran to conquer to globe. But, then, do Christians not expect the same of the Gospel? If you want to be a spiritual stay-at-home, become a Jew. That said, Muslims and Christians have lived side-by-side in peace before, and presumably can, one day, do it again. Pray that the day comes soon.
Rodak
Yes, there is complexity, and what Fr. Vincent also pointed out, of course, is another kind of complexity (and he is, to be sure, quite well versed in Islam, moreso than I, though I would say I have done a different kind of study and studied more from those traditions which are not always as well known). He is bringing up the ordinary believer and the kind of influences being put on them. And I agree we find that. But that really is, as many have noted, a new kind of scheme which has developed in Islam the last couple centuries, and it is in that time we see a great deal of problems coming from Christian-Muslim relations. As many Muslims scholars I’ve studied point out, it is often because of the inclusion of Western ways of thought that we see this brutal merger, and though I think that goes too far, I think there are elements of truth in it. But the solution to me is to keep emphasizing the traditions within Islam which do as I say – work with context, show a more respectful approach to others, etc.
Would you folks here who are Islamaphobes like to get a gander of what REAL disdain for Jesus Christ and Christianity looks like, as opposed to Muslims’s reverence for the prophet they call “Isa” (PBUH)looks like—besides which it pales in significance (as well as in terms of its historic effect on Western intellectual thought and culture)? Then have a look-see at THIS conversation:
4. Underlying Foer’s anger is a tremendous amount of history. Did you know, for example, an old Yiddish saying for an argument that makes no sense is “It didn’t climb up and fly away.” That refers to the Christ myth of resurrection.
5. In sum, Foer is trying to hold Sullivan’s feet to the fire for being a paternalistic Christian who feels entitled to speak about Judaism and what Jews are and ought to think when he actually knows nothing about it or about us. I don’t think Foer does a particularly good job of that but he knows that Sullivan isn’t anti-semitic. No, he’s just Christian.
[As an aside, next time you're complaining about the irrationality of beliefs from the Right, ask yourself how much of that is rooted in the illogical belief system of Christian theology. It frankly amazes the few Jews who dare to think about Christianity that the growing intellectual thread in Catholicism is natural law that are little more than a revival of medievalism in which one assumes the correctness of belief and then describes all that agrees with that correctness as natural. When Evangelicals believe in free markets because that's what God wants, when we're killing Muslims on a crusade to make them like us, where the heck do you think that comes from? Illogical, counter-factual, counter-rational argument is at the center of Christian existence and that is called faith.]
http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2010/02/about-frank-foer-editor-of-the-new-republic-is-he-a-spineless-cowardly-slug-or-is-he-a-human-being.html#comment-6a00e551f0800388340120a884ef19970b
Thank you Henry Carlson for this wonderful post.
One can only hope that the peaceful ones in each of the major religions do get the upper hand in the long run- but certainly right now it does not look all that great.
I found it also interesting that some seem to take the occasion to juxtapose one of the major religion over the other along the lines of look Islam at least honors xyz while the bad bad Jews really are…. Bla bla bla -The sad truth (IMHO)is that the fundamentalist and religious fanatics in each of the major religion have more in common with each other than with their fellow more mild mannered believers.
digby – in the link you provided I lost mosth respect for the blogger after I read: “The question is whether Frank Foer is a human being. ”
Remind me, why am I suppose to be outraged by what you marked in bold? Frankly – I am perhaps embarrassed to say – mostly I would have to agree with whoever authored those comments –
“It frankly amazes” …this cradle catholic too..”that the growing intellectual thread in Catholicism is natural law that are little more than a revival of medievalism in which one assumes the correctness of belief and then describes all that agrees with that correctness as natural.”
Sure it is emotionally perhaps very rewarding to back project and dabble in long gone times – but beyond personal preferences this sort of thing in my view can not serve as anything other than a tiny facet for the much larger picture. It is a bit like insting that
Grega
You are welcome. Yes, there are fundamentalists in Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, et. al., and they really are causing problems. It is clear from all that what is happening is a seclusion of one religious truth in the development of these traditions, and because it becomes unbalanced, the praxis is unbalanced as well. We need to work for the improvement of our own faith (as I am trying to do) while encouraging true dialogue to see each other and to see the good in each other. That will be the first part of any way forward!
“It frankly amazes” …this cradle catholic too..”that the growing intellectual thread in Catholicism is natural law that are little more than a revival of medievalism in which one assumes the correctness of belief and then describes all that agrees with that correctness as natural.”
I agree with you, but I don’t think that is what real Catholicism is. By the way, did you see my response to him later on that thread?
“We need to work for the improvement of our own faith (as I am trying to do) while encouraging true dialogue to see each other and to see the good in each other. That will be the first part of any way forward!”
So true – thanks you for doing your part in such a eloquent and public fashion for all of us to appreciate- much needed to balance the perhaps louder voices dominating ‘catholic’ airwaves at least in this country. It seems to me that a good number of the dominant neocath pseudo-orthodox voices are so busy disliking fellow catholics particualr of the liberal bend that they have no time left to actually pray, reflect and renew their bond to the God. The amount of negative energy wasted is stunning – for example the primary concern of a Fr.Z. these days seems to be have his web followers donate for his cup of coffee in the morning, reflect on this or that Gizmo (Mac or PC?) and rig this or that newspapers web poll.
In my view this will run its course and will amount to not much in the end. But no question the more conservative voices are the active ones right now – and if unchecked will tilt the church into a direction that most of us liberals find rather undesirable. Thus fine voices like those of you Vox Novas are desperately needed.
While Muslims, like all God’s creatures should be treated with respect, I respectfully disagree with this article to the extent is discourages us from taking a clear look at Islam itself. It is not for us Catholics to define what Islam is and is not, but rather those who teach and practice it themselves. They most certainly do not treat Jesus Christ as Lord God and Savior. They think it blasphemy. Islam condems as a form of idolatry and polytheism our belief in the trinity. It is one thing to honor the person of Jesus, as they do; Mary as well, but please don’t be mislead into thinking that this opens up much of door to honest dialogue about our respective faiths, or constitues much of a “common ground” for discussion. All non believers, be they Muslims or not, deserve to know the truth of our faith, exactly as God’s Church has taught it for 2000 years. Real dialogue begins with a true and honest assessment of our differences. Christ’s peace to all.
Chris
Several things. One, how does it discourage us form taking a clear look at Islam? The whole point is we are to do so — through Muslim voices, not through polemics which misrepresent Islamic doctrine. Of course there are disagreements, and they are significant. The issue is whether or not the stereotype of “violent Islam” is valid — and the point is, it isn’t. There are many within Islam who are, as many within Christianity. And when polemics looks only at the bad of Islam and the good of Christianity, ignoring the reverse, it misrepresents the whole situation. And in any dialogue, we will express our faith as well. That is what happens when one engages the other. We experience and learn about each other .
Henry, perhaps what caught my eye more than anything and why I thought that some clarity regarding Islam was lacking was in one of your posted responses when you said “muslims believe that Jesus is the Christ”, something which no devout Muslim would subscribe to, at least not in the sense of Christ as Savior, and second person of the Holy Trinity. I certainly agree that our attitude should be one of charity and that hatred or calls to war or violence against Muslims is wrong. Still as Christians are we not called to bear witness to others and call them to conversion, Muslims included? We as Catholics need ,when and where appropriate, to call them to reject what is a false teaching and come to The Father through Christ our Lord. If dialogue does not have that as its ultimate end, from a faith standpoint, it serves no purpose.
Chris
You are confusing many things. “Muslims believe Jesus is the Messiah.” That is true. That is not saying “they believe him to be the savior.” The term messiah refers not to salvation or divinity, but to the fact that he is the anointed one of Jewish (Mosaic) prophecy. This is why the Jews, if you ask them about “messiah” or “Christ” will not say the messiah is God incarnate. This was a further revelation beyond the nature of his being the messiah. And yes, in our engagement with Muslims, we are to express why we believe him as God incarnate.
“The Christ” means “the Messiah,” in Greek, as you obviously know, Henry, but I think that there has never been a clear understanding in Christianity, let alone Catholicism, as to what the Jews (it IS their term, after all) meant by “Messiah”–either in terms of what they were waiting for in Jesus’ time, or what they are expecting in the modern era. (Some say that, for a significant portion of the modern Jewish population, it would seem to be the Zionist State, which, to both Christian and Muslim ears, sounds like blasphemy.)Jesus clearly DID claim to be long-awaited “Messiah,” and he clearly DID claim to have a special relationship with the God he called “Abba” (“I saw Lucifer fall from the heavens like the stars,” etc.) but a “trinity” is an invention of the early Church fathers.
Digby
Which is part of the point. Messiah has connotations different from “Lord” “God” “Incarnation” etc. Which is why Muslims can view Jesus as Messiah without it being “Lord” or “God” or “Savior.” There is, I think, no universal understanding in Judaism what the Messiah is (is it a person? two persons? the nation of Israel?) and what the Messiah would do. But the Christian understanding is that he did fulfill the claims, but of course, as God often acts contrary to expectations, so the Jews, though they knew of the coming, didn’t understand it in full (and might explain why they have no one view).
he Christian understanding is that he did fulfill the claims
Those “claims” are precisely what I’m talking about. What are they? Isn’t it true that those “claims” included certain physical and social transformations that DID NOT transpire?
Digby
I highly suggest you get a book on Christology which deals with these questions. There are many to choose from — but the depth of the discussion would be hundreds of pages to see the messianic prophecies and how they were understood in Christ.