You wrote on Jan.22 (long after the pro-life health bill passed) that “It is time to dump this bill and start over with real reform.”

Asked what real reform would be you said no abortion funding would be a starting point.

When it was pointed out that no abortion funding is exactly where the House bill is, you still blamed the Democrats.

Sure if the Congress had moved quicker in resolving the points of contention before the unfortunate Mass. elections, we would have a health care bill. And if even one Republican senator would stand up and say he would vote for the pro-life House bill, we would have it.

In the end, all but maybe 2 pro-choice House Democrats were willing to put aside their views on abortion to support universal coverage. Only one House Republican was willing to put aside Republican orthodoxy and vote for the pro-life House bill.

Rather than the Democratic leadership saying they would support abortion funding come heck or high water, every single member of the House Democratic leadership compromised their views on abortion and voted FOR the pro-life bill.

I’m sorry we can’t seem to communicate. I make point A, you counter argue point B. I never made point B. Never implied point B.

My point for the final record is that if the Democrats had voted on a straight party line, the healthcare bill would have passed in both houses. Instead, they chose to fight over abortion. The House bill didn’t have funding, the Senate bill did. The Democrat leadership made it very clear they were going to support abortion funding come heck or high water. It was this that caused the bill to now die. This is the only point I was trying to make.

I’m sorry we are talking past each other. Not sure where the communication breakdown is.

You repeatedly made statements in the future tense (“if only the Democrats would…”). Now you admit they did, except you think they took too much time getting there.

All but at most two pro-choice House Democrats* set aside their opinons on abortion and voted yes on final passage. Only a single Republican had the courage or principles to vote for the House pro-life health care bill. Every other Republican voted NO.

*Kucunich and Baird voted no on final passage dissenting from the Left, though neither said it was specifically the Stupak amendment that was their problem.

I think we are talking past each other.

I never denied that the House passed a bill that banned abortion. What I said was two fold:

The Republicans had NO POWER whatsoever to stop this bill (until now). They couldn’t. They didn’t have the numbers. The DEMOCRATS had the numbers that if voting on a straight party line could have passed anything.

It is the DEMOCRATS infighting over abortion. It is the DEMOCRATS, Pelosi, Reid, et at that forced a reconcilliation of the bills with the contentious abortion funding. Had the Senate adopted a bill with language similar to the Stupak admendment the reconciled health care bill would have hit Obama’s desk by now.

My main point this whole time is that while it must be fun for those on this site to bash Republicans it is the Democrats collapsing that allowed this bill to stall. And that collapse came because the DEMOCRAT leadership insisted on abortion funding.

The Republicans could only make noise. They didn’t have the numbers to stop this bill (again until now). If Pelosi, Reid, etc had accepted the House bill we would have the healthcare reform now. It is the Democrats, in their insistence that abortion be funded, that have killed this bill.

I’m not sure how to communicate my point further. So I’m pretty much ending this, since we don’t seem to be making headway.

You keep repeating the same misstatement. It is not a debatable point as to if the pro-choice House Democrats would fall into line and support a bill without abortion funding. There is a public recorded vote of the House in which one Republican (Cao) joined with the vast majority of pro-choice and anti-abortion to pass a bill without abortion funding.

This is simple and objective fact. That you and so many others continue to deny this reality just adds to the overwhelming evidence that the Pro-Life Movement is about stopping 30 million people from getting health care rather than a movement solely dedicated to a Life agenda.

Wow. Let us count the ways you misrepresent my point. I never claimed that the Republicans are acting on pro-life grounds. This is a claim YOU have made, and then attempt to point out the contradiction. I NEVER claimed such.

My point, again, is that it is the pro-life DEMOCRATS and the Blue Dogs that have slowed the bill down. For all the talk from the Republicans they had no power to stop the bill. Now with Brown they are now a player in the power struggle.

If the Democrats had put together a bill without abortion funding they could have passed a bill. (albiet if the pro-abortion dems would fall in line, which is a debateable point, but doesn’t disprove my main point). The point being is the Democrats fealty to abortion is what doomed this bill.

You have yet to address my original points. Your confusion as to who is responsible for slowing down the bill is quite sad.

BTW, your binary view of “those who oppose this bill want uninsured people to die” is slander. You may tell yourself this but you really only harm yourself in the long run.

Senator Elect Brown has made it quite clear if the House bill was brought before the Senate today, he would vote no as would every other Republican member of the Senate.

We already know for a fact that every Republican House member (save one) voted no on the pro-life, universal coverage bill they had before them.

So please save us the objectively untrue assertion that all the Democrats have to do is put forward a bill without abortion funding. We already did and it got us ONE Republican vote.

It would be unfair to say the pro-life movement has sold out its principles like a ten cent lady of the evening. That is because it is not acting conrary to its principles but among and high of its principles is stopping health insurance for 30 million Americans regardless if abortion is a part or not a part of the bill.

Should read “If teh Democrats”

You misrepresent me completely and assume that I am simply a drone for your boogeymen (Right to Life, NRTLC, etc.).

I said simply that not funding the murder of children is a starting point. The House bill was passed yet Pelosi et al assured her constituents that abortion funding will be covered.

Several authors here have advocated that we should look past the abortion funding since it is only “material cooperation” (we are only sinning a little). See http://vox-nova.com/2010/01/06/the-good-the-bad-and-universal-health-care/ for an example.

The Democrats are the ones who are willing to nuke the bill over abortion funding (pro and con). My original point was two fold:

1. The Democrats fealty to abortion is what jepordizes this bill. The Republicans only now with Brown have any chance to stop the bill. Even the Democrats had just simply not funded abortion, the House bill would probably be law right now.

2. MM and others have insisted that we look past abortion funding in order to pass healthcare reform. Until the posters here realize that by advocating this bill despite abortion funding they only undermine their own cause (as amply shown by Democrats, see point 1).

You have yet to reply to the substance of my post and assume a variety of opinions about me. It may comfort you but it doesn’t conform to reality.

Again I ask since you say that we start with no abortion funding, are you supporting the House bill?

You keep pretending this major piece of legislation passed by one of two chambers of Congress doesn’t exist. You have on the table an actually existing piece of legislation that meets your criteria, yet you, the NRTLC and the March for Life are celebrating its possible demise.

Could you tell me who the advocates of the Senate bill are on this site? I don’t know a single one. On this site there are people like you who seems to oppose both the Senate and House bill, there are those like me who advocate the House bill and there are others who advocate something with the Stuapk language but even more robust than the House bill including a single payer system. I have not found a single poster advocating the Senate bill, though folks have made various comments about it.

The House bill DID drop any abortion coverage. The House Demcorats DID pass a bill without abortion coverage. You and the rest of the Right-Wing say that nothing can be done on social justice until the abortion issue is addressed. And when a health care bill is passed that is pro-life you just pretend it didn’t happen.

The Right-to-Life Movement has not only lost all moral authortiy and is affirmatively a force against justice. No one is obligated to support a movement so based on dishonesty and unjust political manipulation.