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	<title>Comments on: Cavanaugh on the &#8220;already&#8221; and &#8220;not yet&#8221; of the Kingdom</title>
	<atom:link href="http://vox-nova.com/2009/12/04/cavanaugh-on-the-already-and-not-yet-of-the-kingdom/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/12/04/cavanaugh-on-the-already-and-not-yet-of-the-kingdom/</link>
	<description>Catholic perspectives on culture, society, and politics</description>
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		<title>By: Michael J. Iafrate</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/12/04/cavanaugh-on-the-already-and-not-yet-of-the-kingdom/#comment-68117</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael J. Iafrate]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 00:43:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=11186#comment-68117</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;I&gt;If we cannot wish someone peace, the Lord clearly tells us that we must leave our offering outside the temple.&lt;/I&gt;

Yep.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>If we cannot wish someone peace, the Lord clearly tells us that we must leave our offering outside the temple.</i></p>
<p>Yep.</p>
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		<title>By: brettsalkeld</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/12/04/cavanaugh-on-the-already-and-not-yet-of-the-kingdom/#comment-68114</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[brettsalkeld]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 00:08:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=11186#comment-68114</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[R,
  Yes, the line is my own.  I have done so much reading in this area lately that I couldn&#039;t tell you exactly when or from whom I picked up the sentiment.  I think it is probably a combination of many different thinkers.  It may well have been one of those things that first crystalizes mid-lecture.

   I&#039;m glad you find it helpful.  Thank you for your anecdote.  Another time when the link between the Eucharist and the Church becomes particularly clear is when one faces the possibility of an awkward sign of peace.  If we cannot wish someone peace, the Lord clearly tells us that we must leave our offering outside the temple.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>R,<br />
  Yes, the line is my own.  I have done so much reading in this area lately that I couldn&#8217;t tell you exactly when or from whom I picked up the sentiment.  I think it is probably a combination of many different thinkers.  It may well have been one of those things that first crystalizes mid-lecture.</p>
<p>   I&#8217;m glad you find it helpful.  Thank you for your anecdote.  Another time when the link between the Eucharist and the Church becomes particularly clear is when one faces the possibility of an awkward sign of peace.  If we cannot wish someone peace, the Lord clearly tells us that we must leave our offering outside the temple.</p>
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		<title>By: R</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/12/04/cavanaugh-on-the-already-and-not-yet-of-the-kingdom/#comment-68109</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[R]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 19:24:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=11186#comment-68109</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Simply put, we’re more stubborn than bread.&quot;

Brett, did you come up with that yourself?  If I use it, and I expect I&#039;ll want to, I want to get the attribution right.

Along the line of needing to be reminded . . . I remember one Holy Thursday when there was a big crowd of people outside the chapel of repose where I had attended mass, and I was grumbling to myself about my inability to get near the Sacrament, when a tiny/huge voice spoke to my heart, reminding me that all these people &quot;in the way&quot; were each members of the same Body of Christ I supposedly wanted to get close to ...

R]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Simply put, we’re more stubborn than bread.&#8221;</p>
<p>Brett, did you come up with that yourself?  If I use it, and I expect I&#8217;ll want to, I want to get the attribution right.</p>
<p>Along the line of needing to be reminded . . . I remember one Holy Thursday when there was a big crowd of people outside the chapel of repose where I had attended mass, and I was grumbling to myself about my inability to get near the Sacrament, when a tiny/huge voice spoke to my heart, reminding me that all these people &#8220;in the way&#8221; were each members of the same Body of Christ I supposedly wanted to get close to &#8230;</p>
<p>R</p>
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		<title>By: Crusader</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/12/04/cavanaugh-on-the-already-and-not-yet-of-the-kingdom/#comment-68103</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Crusader]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 18:06:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=11186#comment-68103</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ve been thinking about this since being challenged here about my name.  I started using it back in 2003 on a completely different website in debates over politics and religion.  I was much more politically conservative back then.  I suppose it might be time for me to change it.  Still, I should answer your question.  

This is might sound a little silly, but since the age of 16 I&#039;ve considered myself on a personal crusade for the truth.  Six years later, I can see more clearly now that the name is perhaps a bit much.  I guess I&#039;ll just have to come up with a new one :) .]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been thinking about this since being challenged here about my name.  I started using it back in 2003 on a completely different website in debates over politics and religion.  I was much more politically conservative back then.  I suppose it might be time for me to change it.  Still, I should answer your question.  </p>
<p>This is might sound a little silly, but since the age of 16 I&#8217;ve considered myself on a personal crusade for the truth.  Six years later, I can see more clearly now that the name is perhaps a bit much.  I guess I&#8217;ll just have to come up with a new one :) .</p>
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		<title>By: Michael J. Iafrate</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/12/04/cavanaugh-on-the-already-and-not-yet-of-the-kingdom/#comment-68040</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael J. Iafrate]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Dec 2009 20:15:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=11186#comment-68040</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I too am curious about your online name. If you are sticking close to the &quot;mind of the Church,&quot; why choose a name that invokes that particular history? Unless you are attempting to subvert it somehow? What &quot;crusade&quot; are you associating with?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I too am curious about your online name. If you are sticking close to the &#8220;mind of the Church,&#8221; why choose a name that invokes that particular history? Unless you are attempting to subvert it somehow? What &#8220;crusade&#8221; are you associating with?</p>
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		<title>By: Michael J. Iafrate</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/12/04/cavanaugh-on-the-already-and-not-yet-of-the-kingdom/#comment-68039</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael J. Iafrate]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Dec 2009 20:14:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=11186#comment-68039</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Crusader - I had a similar experience in high school, though the noble crusade at that time was the Gulf War. I was a Rush Limbaugh fan in high school. I am amused when Republicatholics (and some right wing Evangelical acquaintances and family members) give me this &quot;you&#039;ll see the light someday&quot; attitude, because they don&#039;t realize that I&#039;ve been there, done that.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Crusader &#8211; I had a similar experience in high school, though the noble crusade at that time was the Gulf War. I was a Rush Limbaugh fan in high school. I am amused when Republicatholics (and some right wing Evangelical acquaintances and family members) give me this &#8220;you&#8217;ll see the light someday&#8221; attitude, because they don&#8217;t realize that I&#8217;ve been there, done that.</p>
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		<title>By: Crusader</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/12/04/cavanaugh-on-the-already-and-not-yet-of-the-kingdom/#comment-68037</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Crusader]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Dec 2009 19:24:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=11186#comment-68037</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mr. Muennemann,

I suppose the name &quot;Crusader&quot; is violence positive in a perhaps unsettling way as it directly correlates with a portion of our historical patrimony most of us would generally prefer to be without, if we could make such a choice.  As for whether or not the name is itself something I should go without, I would say that that depends on the crusade of which I consider myself a part.  Also, I myself am new to Vox Nova, so this name is simply a screen name I chose for posting here.    

Now, I simply follow the mind of the Church as closely as I can on the matters we are discussing.  As far as I can tell that means permitting war in certain very restricted circumstances.  Just war theory can never be viewed or abused as a sort of blank check for accomplishing one&#039;s military and political objectives.

I will be the first to admit that I myself abused the just war criteria.  When I was in high school and the Iraq War started I quickly became a cheerleader for the effort.  I was young, impressionable, and a Republican through familial influence.  So I fell for it.  My thinking now is: never again will I make the same mistake.    

As to your second point, I suppose your are right that we all tend to have a prejudice for our own tribes.  I&#039;ve made that mistake myself in the past, and I am hoping not to make it again.  Hence why I am reading this blog.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Muennemann,</p>
<p>I suppose the name &#8220;Crusader&#8221; is violence positive in a perhaps unsettling way as it directly correlates with a portion of our historical patrimony most of us would generally prefer to be without, if we could make such a choice.  As for whether or not the name is itself something I should go without, I would say that that depends on the crusade of which I consider myself a part.  Also, I myself am new to Vox Nova, so this name is simply a screen name I chose for posting here.    </p>
<p>Now, I simply follow the mind of the Church as closely as I can on the matters we are discussing.  As far as I can tell that means permitting war in certain very restricted circumstances.  Just war theory can never be viewed or abused as a sort of blank check for accomplishing one&#8217;s military and political objectives.</p>
<p>I will be the first to admit that I myself abused the just war criteria.  When I was in high school and the Iraq War started I quickly became a cheerleader for the effort.  I was young, impressionable, and a Republican through familial influence.  So I fell for it.  My thinking now is: never again will I make the same mistake.    </p>
<p>As to your second point, I suppose your are right that we all tend to have a prejudice for our own tribes.  I&#8217;ve made that mistake myself in the past, and I am hoping not to make it again.  Hence why I am reading this blog.</p>
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		<title>By: Frank Muennemann</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/12/04/cavanaugh-on-the-already-and-not-yet-of-the-kingdom/#comment-68033</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Frank Muennemann]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Dec 2009 06:04:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=11186#comment-68033</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Crusader:

I&#039;m a little new around Vox-Nova, so I don&#039;t know whether this is a name you&#039;ve used before, or you picked it for the occasion of discussing &quot;just&quot; and &quot;unjust&quot; violence.  Your choice of name communicates a more violence-positive attitude than a name like &quot;White Dove&quot; would.

The greatest danger in theories of justification --- whether of war or any other behavior that might &quot;ordinarily&quot; be characterized as evil --- is the natural human tendency to favorably prejudge whatever &lt;em&gt;I&lt;/em&gt; identify myself with.  It is natural to assume that &lt;em&gt;my&lt;/em&gt; country&#039;s military endeavors and &lt;em&gt;my&lt;/em&gt; church&#039;s political alliances are &quot;just&quot; until proved otherwise.  

Just saying,...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Crusader:</p>
<p>I&#8217;m a little new around Vox-Nova, so I don&#8217;t know whether this is a name you&#8217;ve used before, or you picked it for the occasion of discussing &#8220;just&#8221; and &#8220;unjust&#8221; violence.  Your choice of name communicates a more violence-positive attitude than a name like &#8220;White Dove&#8221; would.</p>
<p>The greatest danger in theories of justification &#8212; whether of war or any other behavior that might &#8220;ordinarily&#8221; be characterized as evil &#8212; is the natural human tendency to favorably prejudge whatever <em>I</em> identify myself with.  It is natural to assume that <em>my</em> country&#8217;s military endeavors and <em>my</em> church&#8217;s political alliances are &#8220;just&#8221; until proved otherwise.  </p>
<p>Just saying,&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Michael J. Iafrate</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/12/04/cavanaugh-on-the-already-and-not-yet-of-the-kingdom/#comment-68032</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael J. Iafrate]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Dec 2009 04:48:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=11186#comment-68032</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ryan - You might be right. And good call on Yoder. Another good book of his that looks at just war theory seriously is &lt;I&gt;When War Is Unjust&lt;/I&gt;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ryan &#8211; You might be right. And good call on Yoder. Another good book of his that looks at just war theory seriously is <i>When War Is Unjust</i>.</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/12/04/cavanaugh-on-the-already-and-not-yet-of-the-kingdom/#comment-68031</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ryan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Dec 2009 03:18:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=11186#comment-68031</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I believe it went something like &quot;I&#039;m a pacifist, but... you should at least take just war theory seriously if you&#039;re going to use the phrase.&quot;

Crusader--I would recommend John Howard Yoder&#039;s recent (posthumously released) book &quot;Christian Attitudes to War, Peace and Revolution.&quot; He, though a pacifist, took just war theory very seriously and thought the two were interrelated. A very even-handed look at the theory.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe it went something like &#8220;I&#8217;m a pacifist, but&#8230; you should at least take just war theory seriously if you&#8217;re going to use the phrase.&#8221;</p>
<p>Crusader&#8211;I would recommend John Howard Yoder&#8217;s recent (posthumously released) book &#8220;Christian Attitudes to War, Peace and Revolution.&#8221; He, though a pacifist, took just war theory very seriously and thought the two were interrelated. A very even-handed look at the theory.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael J. Iafrate</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/12/04/cavanaugh-on-the-already-and-not-yet-of-the-kingdom/#comment-68030</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael J. Iafrate]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Dec 2009 23:12:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=11186#comment-68030</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Crusader - What I mean by that is that Cavanaugh is rightly rigorous in his use of just war teaching, unlike most Christians who consider themselves &quot;just war Christians.&quot;

Ryan - He may have called himself a pacifist somewhere. I&#039;m not sure. He certainly did oppose the Iraq War but one need not be a pacifist to come to that (obvious) judgment. And no, the Church has never condemned pacifism. On the contrary, the Church has affirmed pacifism.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Crusader &#8211; What I mean by that is that Cavanaugh is rightly rigorous in his use of just war teaching, unlike most Christians who consider themselves &#8220;just war Christians.&#8221;</p>
<p>Ryan &#8211; He may have called himself a pacifist somewhere. I&#8217;m not sure. He certainly did oppose the Iraq War but one need not be a pacifist to come to that (obvious) judgment. And no, the Church has never condemned pacifism. On the contrary, the Church has affirmed pacifism.</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/12/04/cavanaugh-on-the-already-and-not-yet-of-the-kingdom/#comment-68029</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ryan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Dec 2009 22:34:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=11186#comment-68029</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I believe that Cavanaugh identified as a pacifist somewhere, in a condemnation of the Iraq war, I believe. Though, has the church condemned pacifism outright, or has it allowed pacifism to exist as compatible with just-war theory (since there can&#039;t really be just wars anymore)?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe that Cavanaugh identified as a pacifist somewhere, in a condemnation of the Iraq war, I believe. Though, has the church condemned pacifism outright, or has it allowed pacifism to exist as compatible with just-war theory (since there can&#8217;t really be just wars anymore)?</p>
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