Vox Nova

23 Responses to “Quote of the Day”

1. Michael Denton says:

   November 29, 2009 at 3:38 pm

   Ok except for the family part, which I have to say Sullivan is approaching from a pro-homosexual perspective which colors this quote. I do think many on the right have a inauthentic understanding of the family, but fetishizes is poor word.

   And of course, one should point out that their are just as many charlatans proclaiming themselves to be Christian democrats while doing the exact same things, with the possible exception of religious war. But on wealth, the family, and the role of politics the left is just as distant from the teachings of Christ as is the right-even if they’re distant in different ways.
2. Steve says:

   November 29, 2009 at 3:49 pm

   If the republican is synonymous with Roman (which is tenable,) then democrat is synonymous with Pharisee.
3. Morning's Minion says:

   November 29, 2009 at 3:55 pm

   I’m always surprised at how many people defend the Republicans on these matters, and start by pointing fingers at Democrats. Here’s the difference – it is the Republicans who (blasphemously) wrap themselves in the mantle of Christianity. Democrats may pander, but they do not claim to be a Christian party.

   And yes, Sullivan’s knee-jerk swipes at the Church on the issue of homosexuality can be irritating – but this is not the subject matter at hand.
4. Steve says:

   November 29, 2009 at 4:01 pm

   tenable: capable of being held, maintained, or defended, as against attack or dispute.

   I wasn’t defending republicans.
5. Steve says:

   November 29, 2009 at 6:11 pm

   it is the Republicans who (blasphemously) wrap themselves in the mantle of Christianity. Democrats may pander, but they do not claim to be a Christian party.

   After reflection, you’re right. I got it in reverse. It’s the republicans that are the pharisees and democrats that are the romans.
6. JohnMcG says:

   November 29, 2009 at 6:12 pm

   Christianist = Christians Andrew Sullivan doesn’t like.

   This is a new level of self-parody. Sullivan coined a term to smear Christians acting in ways he doesn’t like, and then expresses surprise when he looks at that group and finds things he doesn’t like.
7. Nate Wildermuth says:

   November 29, 2009 at 10:06 pm

   Andrew Sullivan, IMO, is almost completely wrong. “It’s staggering really that modern American Christianism supports wealth while Jesus demanded total poverty”

   Jesus demanded what the Church now calls “universal destination of goods” and promised that his followers would receive a hundred houses for each one they gave up. Jesus didn’t demand the rich to burn their money, but to give it to the poor. We’d all be rich if we followed Christ’s new Jubilee.

   “fetishizes family while Jesus left his and urged his followers to abandon wives, husbands and children,”

   Jesus refused to allow divorce, and urged us to take in children – not kick them out. He wanted us to all be family, not to destroy families.

   “champions politics while Jesus said his kingdom was emphatically not of this world,”

   See Yoder’s “Politics of Jesus.”

   Anyhow, IMO, Sullivan couldn’t be more wrong about Jesus, even if he’s right that few of us actually follow the man we call Lord. We’re all in need of mercy.
8. Kurt says:

   November 29, 2009 at 11:09 pm

   If the republican is synonymous with Roman (which is tenable,) then democrat is synonymous with Pharisee.

   Actually, I think it was correct the first time.
9. digbydolben says:

   November 30, 2009 at 12:01 am

   Jesus refused to allow divorce, and urged us to take in children – not kick them out. He wanted us to all be family, not to destroy families.

   Nate, what do you think the Roman Catholic Church is doing when it campaigns in favour of tax exemptions for college savings to be denied to gay couples who are raising children?

   Jesus decreed that anyone who’d refuse to abandon father, brother, sister et. al. to follow him could not be among his “chosen.” The historical Jesus (and many of his followers) believed that the world was about to end; when the world is about to end, it seems pointless to make a cult of the family.
10. Michael Denton says:

    November 30, 2009 at 12:19 am

    Here’s the difference – it is the Republicans who (blasphemously) wrap themselves in the mantle of Christianity. Democrats may pander, but they do not claim to be a Christian party.

    Utter nonsense. Does Barack Obama not try to get every ounce of mileage out of his “Christianity?” Aren’t black ministers one of the most important grassroots groups organizers for the Democrats? Both sides attempt to use Christianity in ways that defile; pretending one side doesn’t just simply doesn’t match up to reality.

    The one way Catholics move beyond partisanship is to recognize the failings of BOTH sides, not just one.
11. Steve says:

    November 30, 2009 at 8:08 am

    It probably works both ways.
12. David Raber says:

    November 30, 2009 at 9:15 am

    Nate,

    Just to limit my comment to the family values issue, it is hardly tenable to make Jesus into an advocate for “family values” as these values are touted today by the religious right or “Christianism” in this country.

    In asking, Who is my mother? My brother?–and, Who is my neighbor? for that matter–Jesus asks us to go far beyond our natural loyalty to self and family and tribe or nation and dedicate ourselves to the human family, if you will.

    You could say that Jesus assumes we will naturally love ourselves and our families and friends–and insofar as we don’t do these things, that is a huge problem, but to pretty much limit Jesus to affirming family love is to make him little different than a good solid moralist of any place and time. And to make Jesus our chief patriot is indeed blasphemous. Jesus is more than a moralist and more than a tribal god, and his Church should strive to be a whole lot more (and something decidedly different than) the Lord’s Resistance Army.
13. Pinky says:

    November 30, 2009 at 10:42 am

    Five charges: wealth, family, politics, religious war, and torture. The first three are part of a natural, well-ordered society, and are accepted by Christian-”ists”. Jesus didn’t demand total poverty or abandon his family, and recognition of the limits of politics doesn’t forbid His followers from participating in them.

    The last two, religious war and torture, aren’t part of a natural, well-ordered society, and are generally opposed by Christian-”ists”. When’s the last time you heard a Republican call for a religious war? Some support the use of torture. So on one of the points, Sullivan isn’t completely wrong.
14. David Nickol says:

    November 30, 2009 at 12:33 pm

    Andrew Sullivan was wrong to say “fetishizes family.” What Republicans do is make a slogan out of “family values” without being particularly committed to the welfare of families.
15. Michael J. Iafrate says:

    November 30, 2009 at 12:38 pm

    Utter nonsense. Does Barack Obama not try to get every ounce of mileage out of his “Christianity?” Aren’t black ministers one of the most important grassroots groups organizers for the Democrats? Both sides attempt to use Christianity in ways that defile; pretending one side doesn’t just simply doesn’t match up to reality.

    You haven’t addressed the difference, though, that was pointed out: “Here’s the difference – it is the Republicans who (blasphemously) wrap themselves in the mantle of Christianity. Democrats may pander, but they do not claim to be a Christian party.”

    Obama does seem to try to get “mileage” out of his Christianity. He also seems to try to get “mileage” out of appealing to the faiths of non-Christians. Yes, black ministers and churches are “important” for Democrats, but they are also important for Republicans. It’s important to consider in what ways each finds black churches “important,” and to get specific. You have not demonstrated that Democrats use Christianity in “ways that defile.” Again, it is obvious that both Democrats and Republicans (and independents, anarchists, etc.) draw on the Christian faith in various ways. This is to be expected and indeed it is normal. But you have not attended to the differences among them. And the differences are what matters.
16. Michael J. Iafrate says:

    November 30, 2009 at 12:46 pm

    What Republicans do is make a slogan out of “family values” without being particularly committed to the welfare of families.

    You could be stronger: the republicans are simply committed to heteronormativity and a facade of “sexual fidelity” (all the while breaking their own moral codes) and have absolutely NO commitment whatsoever to the welfare of families. I read yesterday that republican dominated states have the highest divorce rates. And the same piece referenced a study that conservative Christianity is an indicator of higher rates of domestic violence. “Family values” indeed.
17. Steve says:

    November 30, 2009 at 1:28 pm

    The only reason that democrats don’t use Christianity like the republicans do is because they can’t. Republicans generally at least pay lip service to pro-life, but democrats can’t consistently vote for such blatant evils as partial-birth abortion, for example, (or full birth “abortion” as in the case of Obama) and reasonably claim to be the party of God. Democrats are smart enough to know that they need to pander to their pro-death base more than southern Christians. If anyone believes that democrats (or republicans) are above politics on any issue then they just aren’t paying attention.

    And by the way, Sullivan said:

    At some point these charlatans need to be chased out of the temple. Which these days means the Republican party.

    Perhaps Sullivan hasn’t noticed, but the republican party has been chased out of the “temple.” Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but this is the best it gets for democrats.
18. Michael Denton says:

    November 30, 2009 at 1:30 pm

    I don’t know if I see the distinction. I’ll grant that more Republicans view the GOP as the Christian party and are more vocal about it, but when you listen to a Kennedy speech for example it’s clear that they too are trying to argue for their party as the real Christian. Heck, much of Minion’s posts here are dedicated to the proposition that the Democrats are the real Christian good guys against the pseudo-Christian Republicans.

    When I brought up black ministers, I was referring to the common practice (and this might be true for some non-black Protestant churches too, but I hear about it more for “black” churches) of preachers using the resources to promote and get out the vote for a candidate or even allowing political candidates to preach at Sunday services. This is a common technique that has been used quite often by Democrats to increase their chances of election. You can’t tell me they’re not wrapping themselves in the mantle of Christianity when they do that.

    All of them wrap themselves in a mantle they do not deserve. Maybe Republicans do it more often and are less discrete about it, but they all do it such that the differences between them are more about technique then substance.
19. JohnMcG says:

    November 30, 2009 at 3:27 pm

    Sullivan forgot to say that conservatives are motivated by racism…..

    I still wonder what it is you wish to accomplish by these posts — do you really think a conservative reader will consider Sullivan’s smear, smack his forehead and say, “My Gosh! Sullivan’s got me pegged! All my political beliefs are in stark contrast with Christ’s teachings. Let me find my checkbook so I can donate to the DNC today!”

    To me, posts like this echo the Pharisee’s prayer — “Thank God I am not like those conservatives over there, who claim to be Christian, but advocate all these terrible things…”

    This post doesn’t even advocate a particular policy, just gestures the reader toward a negative opinion about a political group.

    And yes, right-wing commenters are the same thing.

    Perhaps VN and MM have a particular charism to point out how awful conservatives are. But I am dubious that this is the witness the world needs from us right now.
20. David Raber says:

    December 1, 2009 at 1:06 pm

    John writes,

    “Perhaps VN and MM have a particular charism to point out how awful conservatives are. But I am dubious that this is the witness the world needs from us right now.”

    It is exactly what the world needs to hear–among many other things. In particular there are way too many Americans who believe that being a good Christian is about the same thing as being a good Republican.

    MM, among others in many other forums, including some Protestants like the “Red Letter Christians,” are performing a great service: Reminding us what the Gospel has to say in relation to society and politics.
21. Michael J. Iafrate says:

    December 1, 2009 at 3:35 pm

    To me, posts like this echo the Pharisee’s prayer — “Thank God I am not like those conservatives over there, who claim to be Christian, but advocate all these terrible things…”

    I think of these posts more along the lines of “Woe to you pharisees….” And David is right. They are necessary.
22. Morning's Minion says:

    December 1, 2009 at 4:01 pm

    One more thing: I am most certainly not criticizing “conservatives”. Those whom I criticize are far removed from conservatism.
23. David Nickol says:

    December 1, 2009 at 5:56 pm

    Sullivan forgot to say that conservatives are motivated by racism…..

    John McG,

    Sullivan wasn’t talking about conservatives. He was talking about the Republican Party, which of course neverhad anything to do with exploiting racism.

    GOP: ‘We were wrong’ to play racial politics

    By Richard Benedetto, USA TODAY [7/14/2005]

    Republican National Committee Chairman Ken Mehlman apologized to one of the nation’s largest black civil rights groups Thursday, saying Republicans had not done enough to court blacks in the past and had exploited racial strife to court white voters, particularly in the South.

    “Some Republicans gave up on winning the African-American vote, looking the other way or trying to benefit politically from racial polarization,” Mehlman said at the annual convention of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. “I am here today as the Republican chairman to tell you we were wrong.”

    Mehlman’s apology to the NAACP at the group’s convention in Milwaukee marked the first time a top Republican Party leader has denounced the so-called Southern Strategy employed by Richard Nixon and other Republicans to peel away white voters in what was then the heavily Democratic South. Beginning in the mid-1960s, Republicans encouraged disaffected Southern white voters to vote Republican by blaming pro-civil rights Democrats for racial unrest and other racial problems.