However, the only difference we have, Grega, is that I believe that it is NOT in the interests of the United States or even Western European states to keep on writing blank checks for the apartheid state of Israel.

I also agree that it pointless to go on debating the “justice” of the founding of the State of Israel. However, what is NOT pointless is a discussion of how Israel will accommodate the just demands of the Palestinians, in order that the Western states may go on supporting her without losing credibility as anti-imperialists. Believe me, it is not just Arabs who are affronted by this one-sided support of the Goliath-nation; I was constantly asked by non-Arab Muslims, all the time I lived in India and Sri Lanka, why America was so “unfair” to the Palestinian people. Third World peoples know full well that Israeli atrocities and expropriations are committed with the aid of American funds and materiel.

The biggest enemy of Palestinians is not so much Israel but their own crooked leaders. Billions of EU aid vanished – into the pockets of said leaders. Ideally, there should be a third state, where the radicals on both sides can duke it out. Secular/liberal Muslims and Jews certainly wouldn’t “go at it” like this. Much like the US without the South/red state enclaves ;-) There wouldn’t be much of a military, people would have guaranteed health insurance, vacation…heck, we’d be living in Canada ;-)

Hatred of Jews doesn’t even require their presence. If Israel was the most gentle, just country on the face of the planet (and compared to most Muslim nations it doesn’t look so bad), the hatred would live on, although probably with less support. The main issue is the rotten state of Muslim nations, not the existence of Israel. It’s a convenient scapegoat for the crooked leaders of said nations, however.

What made the Shoah (Holocaust is a bad term since it means a burnt offering…a good thing in Hebrew Scriptures) so extraordinary is that it was perpetrated by a perfectly civilized nation and in so thorough, industrialized, book-kept a manner. If someone were persecuting “my people”, I wouldn’t want it to be Germans but rather Italians or Spaniards etc. And, to the West, it’s much “closer to home” than atrocities perpetrated half a world away.

“Holocaust denial” isn’t really about saying it didn’t happen (plus, most of those people would like to see that kind of genocide) but rather to stop Jews from being “special.”

I’ve never understood the whole “Christ killer” label/libel…nobody says “The Americans killed JFK”. Granted, some rather vicious passages in the “New Testament”certainly “motivate” such people. Then again, Yankee fans also say “We won the World Series”, yet none of them played in it.

It’s part of the natural order of things that Christians protect the Jews, lead difficult lives, and then get slaughtered by Muslims. Any variation from that pattern is a historical abberation. (Armenians have proven to be very good at all three.) I am appalled that what my people have gone through would be used to diminish the tragedy of the Holocaust.

The Zionist movement — to encourage the Jewish people to re-establish a homeland — was alive and well long before the Nazi seizure of power. And the parties guilty as to the Holocaust had little to say about world affairs in 1948.

But however we get there, we are at the point now where two states, each accepting each other and committed to live in peace, is the only possible solution.

There are troubling elements on the Israeli Right. But sadly on the Palestinian side, there is no counterpart to the Israeli Labor Party or other organs of the Left or Center in Israel. There really is no one to negotiate with.

Perhaps you raise some valid points Digbydolben – on the other hand why should anybody be really surprised that Nations do not have ‘Friends’ but rather ‘Interests’. I fully expect that Nations do what is in the best interest of their people – sure Israeli politicians and leaders pushes as hard as they can to have things go their way – I fully expect non less for example from my native Germany or any other ‘nice’ european nation.

If the prominent Muslim were truly representing Islam and making serious criticism of the Vatican, then this might make some sense. But if it had been a Muslim comedian known for outrageousness proposing that the Vatican be sold to end world hunger, then that would be another matter entirely.

What the Palestinian Arabs call the “catastrophe” of 1948 is FRESHER in their memory than the Shoah is in the memories of most Jews I know.

Look, for all the exculpation of the “nice” and “humane” elements of the Israeli population who wish to see a negotiated peace settlement that includes the creation of a Palestinian state, that element of the population seems to have little or no influence with their politicians. The influential element of the Israeli population are the strident Zionists and the “settlers,” who believe in “Eretz Israel,” and who regularly refer to the Palestinians as “dogs.”

I suspect that these people would not be so influential and important in Israeli politics if they weren’t constantly receiving infusions of cash and encouragement from organizations in the U.S. like AIPAC. In Europe such an organization, whose proclaimed purpose, to influence the foreign policy of their country of origin, in favour of a foreign power, would not be tolerated. And all the while, as you Americans ARE tolerating it, the Israelis are heavily involved in espionage against their ostensible “ally.” (Just this morning ANOTHER nuclear scientist corrupted by Mossad was arrested in Washington. Do you believe that a so-called “ally”–and one that is costing the United States so much in terms of world approval–should be STEALING the defense secrets of its patron state?)

Do you think that the opulence of the Vatican is a moral flaw?

The “curious intensity” that Mark sees in opposition to Israel is solely related to its stuanch lop-sided support from the US. I think if the US adopted a similar policy toward the Sinhalese in Sri Lanka, you would see the same reaction.

“To credit Arab and Muslim anti-Semitism as some kind of natural reaction to Israel is simply ignorant or its origin.” I’ve traveled quite a lot around the middle east. I know many people from the region. Israel is simply the defining issue. This is not to excuse their actions, or to defend their governments, but it is simply a fact.