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	<title>Comments on: The Eschaton Has Been Immanentized III: Called to be Christ</title>
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	<description>Catholic perspectives on culture, society, and politics</description>
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		<title>By: Ronald King</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/08/29/the-eschaton-has-been-immanentized-iii-called-to-be-christ/#comment-62815</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ronald King]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Aug 2009 11:51:08 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Thanks Henry.  I am going to that reference now.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Henry.  I am going to that reference now.</p>
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		<title>By: Henry Karlson</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/08/29/the-eschaton-has-been-immanentized-iii-called-to-be-christ/#comment-62799</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Henry Karlson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Aug 2009 23:28:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=9536#comment-62799</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ronald

The difficulty is this: if man was meant to disobey then it is no longer disobedience, which is the contradiction involved. I would say we can have maturity without sin -- Christ and Mary both show us this, in their own sinlessness. But we must not confuse &quot;knowledge of good and evil&quot; as wisdom, in many ways, it is the opposite of wisdom. I think we agree on some points, but I do think the foundation is the attempt to be one&#039;s own source for existence, which, because we are not, cuts us up and brings about the egoism. 

Anyway, I agree it is a difficult issue, and I don&#039;t have all the answers. I think we can bracket a &quot;general disposition&quot; and realize some of it we cannot figure out beyond the revelation which we have, revelation which is not &quot;pure history&quot; but a story telling us something about the human condition and the foundation of sin. Maybe one day I will be able to write more on this -- but, if you are interested in this line of talk, I would also recommend St Athanasius&#039; Contra Gentiles and On the Incarnation (http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/athanasius/incarnation/incarnation.1.htm to the part dealing with creation and fall) as a good start to see ancient reflections on this.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ronald</p>
<p>The difficulty is this: if man was meant to disobey then it is no longer disobedience, which is the contradiction involved. I would say we can have maturity without sin &#8212; Christ and Mary both show us this, in their own sinlessness. But we must not confuse &#8220;knowledge of good and evil&#8221; as wisdom, in many ways, it is the opposite of wisdom. I think we agree on some points, but I do think the foundation is the attempt to be one&#8217;s own source for existence, which, because we are not, cuts us up and brings about the egoism. </p>
<p>Anyway, I agree it is a difficult issue, and I don&#8217;t have all the answers. I think we can bracket a &#8220;general disposition&#8221; and realize some of it we cannot figure out beyond the revelation which we have, revelation which is not &#8220;pure history&#8221; but a story telling us something about the human condition and the foundation of sin. Maybe one day I will be able to write more on this &#8212; but, if you are interested in this line of talk, I would also recommend St Athanasius&#8217; Contra Gentiles and On the Incarnation (<a href="http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/athanasius/incarnation/incarnation.1.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/athanasius/incarnation/incarnation.1.htm</a> to the part dealing with creation and fall) as a good start to see ancient reflections on this.</p>
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		<title>By: Ronald King</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/08/29/the-eschaton-has-been-immanentized-iii-called-to-be-christ/#comment-62792</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ronald King]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Aug 2009 23:03:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=9536#comment-62792</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Henry,  I would tend to agree with St. Irenaeus to a certain extent.  I believe the knowledge was meant to be revealed but maturity cannot take place until wisdom has formed.  Wisdom in our human history cannot occur without leaving the comfort and safety of the womb and home.  An example is with the prodigal son when he suffered the loss of everything and knew where to return.  The son who never left did not welcome him home.  He never matured into love but remained in being obedient.
Now, how can the first two humans know obedience or develop an ego if they do not know di sobedience and fear.  The ego is the result of the interplay of the id(instinctive impulses) and the superego(introjected rules and consequences) as they struggle for expression and control within the context of human relationships.  The ego is born of fear and then the primitive defenses form to protect the self from the internal consequences associated with the object of that fear.
I must keep this short but I believe that the original sin is the interpretation of the event that marked human awakening into the world of dualism.  From that point on sin was born of blame and   They knew no death.  They knew no evil.  They did not know God.  When they hid from God it was a sign of their  innocence and their ignorance.  Egoism is the result of human interaction with humans and a competition for superiority in this reality. 
This definitely needs a much more involved discussion.  I would love to pursue this more.  I truly believe that the interpretation of the beginning of human history creates the present crisis in our faith today.  We are created for love but we are seen as disobedient when we are really innocent because we do not know what we do.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Henry,  I would tend to agree with St. Irenaeus to a certain extent.  I believe the knowledge was meant to be revealed but maturity cannot take place until wisdom has formed.  Wisdom in our human history cannot occur without leaving the comfort and safety of the womb and home.  An example is with the prodigal son when he suffered the loss of everything and knew where to return.  The son who never left did not welcome him home.  He never matured into love but remained in being obedient.<br />
Now, how can the first two humans know obedience or develop an ego if they do not know di sobedience and fear.  The ego is the result of the interplay of the id(instinctive impulses) and the superego(introjected rules and consequences) as they struggle for expression and control within the context of human relationships.  The ego is born of fear and then the primitive defenses form to protect the self from the internal consequences associated with the object of that fear.<br />
I must keep this short but I believe that the original sin is the interpretation of the event that marked human awakening into the world of dualism.  From that point on sin was born of blame and   They knew no death.  They knew no evil.  They did not know God.  When they hid from God it was a sign of their  innocence and their ignorance.  Egoism is the result of human interaction with humans and a competition for superiority in this reality.<br />
This definitely needs a much more involved discussion.  I would love to pursue this more.  I truly believe that the interpretation of the beginning of human history creates the present crisis in our faith today.  We are created for love but we are seen as disobedient when we are really innocent because we do not know what we do.</p>
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		<title>By: Henry Karlson</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/08/29/the-eschaton-has-been-immanentized-iii-called-to-be-christ/#comment-62772</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Henry Karlson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Aug 2009 16:10:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=9536#comment-62772</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ronald,

When dealing with the Genesis story, there are many different possible interpretations that have been given in patristic and traditional theology. There are a few aspects which tend to be universal:

1) That humanity in some way disobeyed God 
2) This disobedience was a kind of egoistical assertion which tried to place oneself as equal in essence to God
3) And thus in this egoism, there was an initial evil which was done, which corrupted the humanity and divided what was once united along the lines of individualistic egosim. 

Now, there are questions about the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Some would say what it means is &quot;knowledge of the experience of evil&quot; of &quot;having done evil&quot; for disobedience, that it was a token show of faith in God or not. Others, like St Irenaeus suggest that the tree was meant to be taken, and it was to given increase in knowledge, but only after maturity and proving oneself worthy of it. But in all of them, there was indeed something which was evil done; and yet we were called to know what is good. Evil is generally seen as a privation and perversion of what is good. 

Balthasar goes on to explain the issue of God&#039;s foreknowledge along the lines of: God created the world in order to have the world be brought up and experience the divine life. The creation of the world comes out of the internal self-kenosis of the Father in the generation of the son, creating the space within the Trinity for creation and its own freedom. In that freedom, God has also made the world so that if it stood in faith or not, God&#039;s desire for the world, that it could find a place in the divine life, would be established: the cross, the giving of the Son in kenosis to the world was planned at creation, so that the self-giving love of the Father to the Son and the Son to the Father can lead to our own sharing of the Son&#039;s self-giving back to the Father. So it is not that God created us to fall, but created a world in which a fall is possible and yet not divert the divine plan. 

I&#039;m not saying these ways of viewing the question are necessarily the answer as much as there are many possible answers. It&#039;s not an easy question and it is indeed one which is still be explored. But they rely upon the sense that humanity &quot;Grasp for itself&quot; in egoism instead of joined in with God&#039;s love which led to the fall and original sin.

I&#039;m glad you enjoyed the reflection; I am really trying to draw out the implications of our theological tradition to make sure we live the life we are called to live, a life of love; it&#039;s not easy and I always need these reminders myself. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ronald,</p>
<p>When dealing with the Genesis story, there are many different possible interpretations that have been given in patristic and traditional theology. There are a few aspects which tend to be universal:</p>
<p>1) That humanity in some way disobeyed God<br />
2) This disobedience was a kind of egoistical assertion which tried to place oneself as equal in essence to God<br />
3) And thus in this egoism, there was an initial evil which was done, which corrupted the humanity and divided what was once united along the lines of individualistic egosim. </p>
<p>Now, there are questions about the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Some would say what it means is &#8220;knowledge of the experience of evil&#8221; of &#8220;having done evil&#8221; for disobedience, that it was a token show of faith in God or not. Others, like St Irenaeus suggest that the tree was meant to be taken, and it was to given increase in knowledge, but only after maturity and proving oneself worthy of it. But in all of them, there was indeed something which was evil done; and yet we were called to know what is good. Evil is generally seen as a privation and perversion of what is good. </p>
<p>Balthasar goes on to explain the issue of God&#8217;s foreknowledge along the lines of: God created the world in order to have the world be brought up and experience the divine life. The creation of the world comes out of the internal self-kenosis of the Father in the generation of the son, creating the space within the Trinity for creation and its own freedom. In that freedom, God has also made the world so that if it stood in faith or not, God&#8217;s desire for the world, that it could find a place in the divine life, would be established: the cross, the giving of the Son in kenosis to the world was planned at creation, so that the self-giving love of the Father to the Son and the Son to the Father can lead to our own sharing of the Son&#8217;s self-giving back to the Father. So it is not that God created us to fall, but created a world in which a fall is possible and yet not divert the divine plan. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m not saying these ways of viewing the question are necessarily the answer as much as there are many possible answers. It&#8217;s not an easy question and it is indeed one which is still be explored. But they rely upon the sense that humanity &#8220;Grasp for itself&#8221; in egoism instead of joined in with God&#8217;s love which led to the fall and original sin.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m glad you enjoyed the reflection; I am really trying to draw out the implications of our theological tradition to make sure we live the life we are called to live, a life of love; it&#8217;s not easy and I always need these reminders myself.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Ronald King</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/08/29/the-eschaton-has-been-immanentized-iii-called-to-be-christ/#comment-62767</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ronald King]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Aug 2009 12:29:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=9536#comment-62767</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Beautifully written Henry.  Thank you for your passionate exploration of love.
Henry,  I have probably stated this before someplace so forgive me if I repeat myself.  Could the fall or original sin actually be a misinterpretation of the plan of God?  In other words, there could be no other way to God at this level of creation without the knowledge of good and evil.  It seems that without this knowledge of good and evil there could be no free will which would lead to free choice.  
God would know the consequences of this particular aspect of His creation. and this would seem to be the natural law of this reality.  To be made in His image and likeness would require us to know good and evil and to struggle to find our way to Him through the complexity of dualism which is the natural law of the physical realm.  As such, it seems that God would then at the proper time reveal His path to us in the suffering and total annihilation of self through the path of loving our enemies even as they kill us because they do not know what they do.  Given that we are Christians this is then our path of annihilation in loving as Christ loves.
Sorry for the rambling.  Sometimes when I start I do not know what will come.  Thank you for these beautiful meditations on Love and the mind-altering experiences they bring me.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Beautifully written Henry.  Thank you for your passionate exploration of love.<br />
Henry,  I have probably stated this before someplace so forgive me if I repeat myself.  Could the fall or original sin actually be a misinterpretation of the plan of God?  In other words, there could be no other way to God at this level of creation without the knowledge of good and evil.  It seems that without this knowledge of good and evil there could be no free will which would lead to free choice.<br />
God would know the consequences of this particular aspect of His creation. and this would seem to be the natural law of this reality.  To be made in His image and likeness would require us to know good and evil and to struggle to find our way to Him through the complexity of dualism which is the natural law of the physical realm.  As such, it seems that God would then at the proper time reveal His path to us in the suffering and total annihilation of self through the path of loving our enemies even as they kill us because they do not know what they do.  Given that we are Christians this is then our path of annihilation in loving as Christ loves.<br />
Sorry for the rambling.  Sometimes when I start I do not know what will come.  Thank you for these beautiful meditations on Love and the mind-altering experiences they bring me.</p>
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