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	<title>Comments on: The Eschaton Has Been Immanentized II: The Church is the Continued Presence of the Eschaton in the World</title>
	<atom:link href="http://vox-nova.com/2009/08/23/the-eschaton-has-been-immanentized-ii-the-church-is-the-continued-presence-of-the-eschaton-in-the-world/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/08/23/the-eschaton-has-been-immanentized-ii-the-church-is-the-continued-presence-of-the-eschaton-in-the-world/</link>
	<description>Catholic perspectives on culture, society, and politics</description>
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		<title>By: Michael J. Iafrate</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/08/23/the-eschaton-has-been-immanentized-ii-the-church-is-the-continued-presence-of-the-eschaton-in-the-world/#comment-62540</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael J. Iafrate]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 00:26:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=9340#comment-62540</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;I&gt;The Kingdom is not yet, not complete and perfect like it will be. Heaven is not Earth.&lt;/I&gt;

I do not disagree with this. Obviously the Kingdom is not complete. 

Zach, the eschaton is &lt;I&gt;already&lt;/I&gt; and &lt;i&gt;not yet&lt;/I&gt;. This is clear from both scripture and tradition. 

As a side note, for as much as liberation theologians are criticized for &quot;immanentizing the eschaton,&quot; their sense of the pervasiveness of human sin is obviously a strong point in their theologies. For as much as they stress the possibility of building the Kingdom in history, they make it quite clear that the anti-Kingdom reigns a lot of the time. 

Look, this is one of the major sticking points of Christian theology: which do you emphasize, the already or the not yet. But you have to keep both in mind, or else there will be distortions.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>The Kingdom is not yet, not complete and perfect like it will be. Heaven is not Earth.</i></p>
<p>I do not disagree with this. Obviously the Kingdom is not complete. </p>
<p>Zach, the eschaton is <i>already</i> and <i>not yet</i>. This is clear from both scripture and tradition. </p>
<p>As a side note, for as much as liberation theologians are criticized for &#8220;immanentizing the eschaton,&#8221; their sense of the pervasiveness of human sin is obviously a strong point in their theologies. For as much as they stress the possibility of building the Kingdom in history, they make it quite clear that the anti-Kingdom reigns a lot of the time. </p>
<p>Look, this is one of the major sticking points of Christian theology: which do you emphasize, the already or the not yet. But you have to keep both in mind, or else there will be distortions.</p>
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		<title>By: Zach</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/08/23/the-eschaton-has-been-immanentized-ii-the-church-is-the-continued-presence-of-the-eschaton-in-the-world/#comment-62539</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zach]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 00:02:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=9340#comment-62539</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m coming back to this, because I think you are wrong.

The Kingdom is not yet, not complete and perfect like it will be.  Heaven is not Earth.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m coming back to this, because I think you are wrong.</p>
<p>The Kingdom is not yet, not complete and perfect like it will be.  Heaven is not Earth.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael J. Iafrate</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/08/23/the-eschaton-has-been-immanentized-ii-the-church-is-the-continued-presence-of-the-eschaton-in-the-world/#comment-62428</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael J. Iafrate]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 22:37:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=9340#comment-62428</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;I&gt;I simply said that our work is doing His work.&lt;/I&gt;

Of course our work is his work. So let&#039;s not have any more excuses about how the Kingdom is &quot;not yet.&quot; The Kingdom, yes the eschaton, is now if we participate in Christ&#039;s work in history.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I simply said that our work is doing His work.</i></p>
<p>Of course our work is his work. So let&#8217;s not have any more excuses about how the Kingdom is &#8220;not yet.&#8221; The Kingdom, yes the eschaton, is now if we participate in Christ&#8217;s work in history.</p>
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		<title>By: Zach</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/08/23/the-eschaton-has-been-immanentized-ii-the-church-is-the-continued-presence-of-the-eschaton-in-the-world/#comment-62426</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zach]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 22:00:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=9340#comment-62426</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Michael - I did not posit &quot;a competition&quot; between Christ&#039;s work and ours. Christ&#039;s work is good and when we do good we participate in his work.  I simply said that our work is doing His work.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael &#8211; I did not posit &#8220;a competition&#8221; between Christ&#8217;s work and ours. Christ&#8217;s work is good and when we do good we participate in his work.  I simply said that our work is doing His work.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael J. Iafrate</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/08/23/the-eschaton-has-been-immanentized-ii-the-church-is-the-continued-presence-of-the-eschaton-in-the-world/#comment-62386</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael J. Iafrate]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 02:20:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=9340#comment-62386</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Zach - If we are truly sharing in the life of Christ, then there is no competition between his work and ours. Christ works in us. There is, in fact, no other way for him to work but through us. 

It is important to consider whether or not one&#039;s &quot;different emphasis&quot; is becoming a distortion...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Zach &#8211; If we are truly sharing in the life of Christ, then there is no competition between his work and ours. Christ works in us. There is, in fact, no other way for him to work but through us. </p>
<p>It is important to consider whether or not one&#8217;s &#8220;different emphasis&#8221; is becoming a distortion&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Zach</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/08/23/the-eschaton-has-been-immanentized-ii-the-church-is-the-continued-presence-of-the-eschaton-in-the-world/#comment-62383</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zach]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 01:55:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=9340#comment-62383</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The funny thing is I don&#039;t think I disagree with anything written in these comments. Thank you all for the respect. 

If I could pick one thing, I would perhaps prefer a different emphasis in the following passage: &quot;we are called to do in history by transforming history and bringing it into the eschaton&quot;  

It is not us, but Christ works in history and Christ will usher in the Eschaton.  We participate in this work insofar as we share in His life.  We share in his life insofar as we give ourselves to Him.  We each share in His life insofar as we are open to receive Him, and this is also to say we are not all equally open.  Sanctity is intensely personal and also therefore the in-breaking of the Kingdom depends on the response of each person.

And yes, I tend to focus on the &quot;not yet&quot; when I&#039;m talking about politics because politics includes people outside the Body of Christ.  I don&#039;t think this understanding helps to support people in power; I think it is inclusive and better reflects the demands of justice.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The funny thing is I don&#8217;t think I disagree with anything written in these comments. Thank you all for the respect. </p>
<p>If I could pick one thing, I would perhaps prefer a different emphasis in the following passage: &#8220;we are called to do in history by transforming history and bringing it into the eschaton&#8221;  </p>
<p>It is not us, but Christ works in history and Christ will usher in the Eschaton.  We participate in this work insofar as we share in His life.  We share in his life insofar as we give ourselves to Him.  We each share in His life insofar as we are open to receive Him, and this is also to say we are not all equally open.  Sanctity is intensely personal and also therefore the in-breaking of the Kingdom depends on the response of each person.</p>
<p>And yes, I tend to focus on the &#8220;not yet&#8221; when I&#8217;m talking about politics because politics includes people outside the Body of Christ.  I don&#8217;t think this understanding helps to support people in power; I think it is inclusive and better reflects the demands of justice.</p>
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		<title>By: Peadar Roe</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/08/23/the-eschaton-has-been-immanentized-ii-the-church-is-the-continued-presence-of-the-eschaton-in-the-world/#comment-62342</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Peadar Roe]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 17:07:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=9340#comment-62342</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Wasn&#039;t it St. Catherine of Sienna, Doctor of the Church, who said, &quot;All the way to heaven is heaven.&quot;?

Then we have the rather common, &quot;Every thing is grace.&quot;

I suppose you could as well have used the first or second quote and said, simply, &quot;Ditto.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wasn&#8217;t it St. Catherine of Sienna, Doctor of the Church, who said, &#8220;All the way to heaven is heaven.&#8221;?</p>
<p>Then we have the rather common, &#8220;Every thing is grace.&#8221;</p>
<p>I suppose you could as well have used the first or second quote and said, simply, &#8220;Ditto.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Henry Karlson</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/08/23/the-eschaton-has-been-immanentized-ii-the-church-is-the-continued-presence-of-the-eschaton-in-the-world/#comment-62315</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Henry Karlson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 08:08:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=9340#comment-62315</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Zach, Michael is quite right, the &quot;already and not yet,&quot; which is what I started with here, is important, and the &quot;already&quot; part is so often forgotten. People think of the eschaton in a temporal sense, when it is in reality, the kingdom of God-- and that kingdom was established by Christ on the cross. The relationship between eternity and time, and Lubac puts it well:

&quot;For in truth the hereafter is far nearer than the future, far nearer than what we call the present. It is the Eternal found at the heart of all temporal development which gives it life and direction. It is the authentic Present without which the present itself is like the dust which slips through our hands. If modern men are so absent from each other, it is primarily because they are absent from themselves, since they have abandoned this Eternal which alone establishes them in being and enables them to communicate with one another&quot; de Lubac, Catholicism: Christ and the Common Destiny of Man. trans. Lancelot C. Sheppard and Sister Elizabeth Englund, OCD (San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1988), 362.

Schmemann finds one of the great problems is that we have lost this eschatological notion of the church, and this leads to all kinds of denials, such as sacramental denial, in history. It is also used, as you have said, to ignore the responsibility and work which we are called to do in history by transforming history and bringing it into the eschaton -- that is what it means to be a Christian, to be one of the royal priesthood - Schmemann even puts it that our very partaking of the eucharist is primarily not for ourselves but for the world.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Zach, Michael is quite right, the &#8220;already and not yet,&#8221; which is what I started with here, is important, and the &#8220;already&#8221; part is so often forgotten. People think of the eschaton in a temporal sense, when it is in reality, the kingdom of God&#8211; and that kingdom was established by Christ on the cross. The relationship between eternity and time, and Lubac puts it well:</p>
<p>&#8220;For in truth the hereafter is far nearer than the future, far nearer than what we call the present. It is the Eternal found at the heart of all temporal development which gives it life and direction. It is the authentic Present without which the present itself is like the dust which slips through our hands. If modern men are so absent from each other, it is primarily because they are absent from themselves, since they have abandoned this Eternal which alone establishes them in being and enables them to communicate with one another&#8221; de Lubac, Catholicism: Christ and the Common Destiny of Man. trans. Lancelot C. Sheppard and Sister Elizabeth Englund, OCD (San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1988), 362.</p>
<p>Schmemann finds one of the great problems is that we have lost this eschatological notion of the church, and this leads to all kinds of denials, such as sacramental denial, in history. It is also used, as you have said, to ignore the responsibility and work which we are called to do in history by transforming history and bringing it into the eschaton &#8212; that is what it means to be a Christian, to be one of the royal priesthood &#8211; Schmemann even puts it that our very partaking of the eucharist is primarily not for ourselves but for the world.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael J. Iafrate</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/08/23/the-eschaton-has-been-immanentized-ii-the-church-is-the-continued-presence-of-the-eschaton-in-the-world/#comment-62300</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael J. Iafrate]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 02:03:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=9340#comment-62300</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Zach - You&#039;re not insane, but you have a very one-dimensional understanding of the eschaton which understands it only in terms of events that are forecasted. In Catholic eschatology, the eschaton is not merely an event or set of events in the future, but we believe that the future has broken into the world in Jesus Christ and continues to break into the world in a variety of ways, including the sacraments, Christ&#039;s ongoing presence in the Church, in the struggle for justice, etc. In Catholic theology, indeed in Paul&#039;s theology, the Kingdom is &quot;already and not yet.&quot; We are living in the overlapping in-between times. As members of Christ&#039;s Body, we are to prefigure the Kingdom in history, today. Of course we don&#039;t do that in the fullest sense. Sin still affects our efforts. The Kingdom is still coming, but it is also here, at hand. 

You tend to focus on the &quot;not yet.&quot; So does that Jesuit you like to read... what&#039;s his name... the one who doesn&#039;t like liberation theology. The problem is that this understanding of the Kingdom is useful to those in power and is used to support injustice. Gotta keep them both in view: the already and the not yet. 

No matter what kind of static understanding of reality is pushed on us, though, we followers of the &lt;I&gt;Autobasilea&lt;/I&gt; know that the Kingdom is coming because we have seen it present in the struggle for justice.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Zach &#8211; You&#8217;re not insane, but you have a very one-dimensional understanding of the eschaton which understands it only in terms of events that are forecasted. In Catholic eschatology, the eschaton is not merely an event or set of events in the future, but we believe that the future has broken into the world in Jesus Christ and continues to break into the world in a variety of ways, including the sacraments, Christ&#8217;s ongoing presence in the Church, in the struggle for justice, etc. In Catholic theology, indeed in Paul&#8217;s theology, the Kingdom is &#8220;already and not yet.&#8221; We are living in the overlapping in-between times. As members of Christ&#8217;s Body, we are to prefigure the Kingdom in history, today. Of course we don&#8217;t do that in the fullest sense. Sin still affects our efforts. The Kingdom is still coming, but it is also here, at hand. </p>
<p>You tend to focus on the &#8220;not yet.&#8221; So does that Jesuit you like to read&#8230; what&#8217;s his name&#8230; the one who doesn&#8217;t like liberation theology. The problem is that this understanding of the Kingdom is useful to those in power and is used to support injustice. Gotta keep them both in view: the already and the not yet. </p>
<p>No matter what kind of static understanding of reality is pushed on us, though, we followers of the <i>Autobasilea</i> know that the Kingdom is coming because we have seen it present in the struggle for justice.</p>
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		<title>By: Zach</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/08/23/the-eschaton-has-been-immanentized-ii-the-church-is-the-continued-presence-of-the-eschaton-in-the-world/#comment-62297</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zach]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 01:40:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=9340#comment-62297</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Heaven has come to Earth, indeed. It indeed remains here in the Eucharist. But it doesn&#039;t take a degree in theology to know that the eschaton (the last things) has not come to pass. Doesn&#039;t the eschaton refer primarily to the return of Christ to Earth, the final judgment and the resurrection of the dead? And hasn&#039;t none of these things happened? Andd isn&#039;t this good reason to &quot;Deny [at least in some way] that the eschaton has been immanetized&quot;?

Or am I insane?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Heaven has come to Earth, indeed. It indeed remains here in the Eucharist. But it doesn&#8217;t take a degree in theology to know that the eschaton (the last things) has not come to pass. Doesn&#8217;t the eschaton refer primarily to the return of Christ to Earth, the final judgment and the resurrection of the dead? And hasn&#8217;t none of these things happened? Andd isn&#8217;t this good reason to &#8220;Deny [at least in some way] that the eschaton has been immanetized&#8221;?</p>
<p>Or am I insane?</p>
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