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	<title>Comments on: US vs. Rome</title>
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	<description>Catholic perspectives on culture, society, and politics</description>
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		<title>By: dance teacher</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/06/03/us-vs-rome/#comment-58155</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[dance teacher]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Jun 2009 10:05:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=7768#comment-58155</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[grat post!.. really enjoyed the user comments.. keep &#039;em coming!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>grat post!.. really enjoyed the user comments.. keep &#8216;em coming!</p>
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		<title>By: HA</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/06/03/us-vs-rome/#comment-57788</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[HA]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 04:21:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=7768#comment-57788</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Take heart, Digby – at least you&#039;re lucky enough to be among people whose animosity extends only to your deplorable arguments. Were it otherwise, you might have reason to worry about the paper trail you’ve left behind, but as it is, your personal matters, whatever they are, are yours alone (at least they would be, if you could refrain from inserting them into the discussion). And that will not change regardless of what you do with this one last offering: should you ever again marvel at how the glass house you live in gives you a clear vantage point from which to throw stones at others, be they living or dead or virtual, you would do well to resist acting on any impulse.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Take heart, Digby – at least you&#8217;re lucky enough to be among people whose animosity extends only to your deplorable arguments. Were it otherwise, you might have reason to worry about the paper trail you’ve left behind, but as it is, your personal matters, whatever they are, are yours alone (at least they would be, if you could refrain from inserting them into the discussion). And that will not change regardless of what you do with this one last offering: should you ever again marvel at how the glass house you live in gives you a clear vantage point from which to throw stones at others, be they living or dead or virtual, you would do well to resist acting on any impulse.</p>
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		<title>By: digbydolben</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/06/03/us-vs-rome/#comment-57718</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[digbydolben]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 03:22:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=7768#comment-57718</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think this whole thread should be deleted; it&#039;s a disgrace to Catholic Christianity.

You may be sure, HA, that I shall never address you anywhere but here, ever again.

You are the most vicious, the most acidly contemptuous person I&#039;ve ever met who dares to call himself a Catholic Christian. You need medication, or prayers, or both.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think this whole thread should be deleted; it&#8217;s a disgrace to Catholic Christianity.</p>
<p>You may be sure, HA, that I shall never address you anywhere but here, ever again.</p>
<p>You are the most vicious, the most acidly contemptuous person I&#8217;ve ever met who dares to call himself a Catholic Christian. You need medication, or prayers, or both.</p>
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		<title>By: HA</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/06/03/us-vs-rome/#comment-57704</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[HA]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 22:48:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=7768#comment-57704</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt; I’ve now begun to understand that this whole discussion, and even the previous ones revolve around this idiot’s perception of MY issues regarding “homophobia&quot; or MY “queerness,”…&lt;/i&gt; 
   
Wait, who said anything having to do with *your* “queerness”? Oh, yeah - you just did. Repeatedly. Did anyone else? No, guess not. Well, again, thanks for sharing Digby , but look, you have already stated for the record that anyone who suspects you might be homosexual “couldn’t be more mistaken”, so that’s been settled. (To the extent you had to further clarify what that phrase or “construct” actually meant, I’m glad to have given you the opportunity to do so. You’re welcome.) But now that you’re safely out of the clutches of the evil Yahoos who fire teachers displaying such tendencies (according to you, anyway) – and furthermore, you harbor no designs of ever returning there – it seems the only one who is worrying over how you appear to others in that regard is you. That being the case, I suggest you carry out any self-psychoanalysis  and categorization in your own private journals, thanks ever so much. As it is, there is a long, long list of things about your posts to take issue with, to the extent that how you choose to live your life is vanishingly small in comparison, so I’d just as soon you keep your private affairs to yourself.  
   
Then again, to the extent that your &lt;i&gt;ad hominem&lt;/i&gt; gay-baiting slurs of the pope lay bare your hypocrisy and lack of credibility, as does your inability to differentiate an elliptical sentence from incoherent drivel (something which you even claim to be passing on to your students, no less), well, that’s a topic that might be relevant again at some point. 

Until then, let me say it is nice to have you back by the way, after your having found this thread become so unedifying and un-educational. Speaking for myself, I’d rather return to setting the record straight regarding an admirable man who has been unjustly accused and maligned in order to score points, but if you want to keep the focus on yourself, and your transparent efforts to overshadow your bigotry with gratuitous referencces to gay-straight alliances and whatnot, then I suppose I should at least thank you for doing your part to discredit the other side. As far as I’m concerned, if there are any more gay-baiting hypocrites out there with an inflated sense of their own enlightenment, they are more than welcome to join you.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i> I’ve now begun to understand that this whole discussion, and even the previous ones revolve around this idiot’s perception of MY issues regarding “homophobia&#8221; or MY “queerness,”…</i><br />
  <br />
Wait, who said anything having to do with *your* “queerness”? Oh, yeah &#8211; you just did. Repeatedly. Did anyone else? No, guess not. Well, again, thanks for sharing Digby , but look, you have already stated for the record that anyone who suspects you might be homosexual “couldn’t be more mistaken”, so that’s been settled. (To the extent you had to further clarify what that phrase or “construct” actually meant, I’m glad to have given you the opportunity to do so. You’re welcome.) But now that you’re safely out of the clutches of the evil Yahoos who fire teachers displaying such tendencies (according to you, anyway) – and furthermore, you harbor no designs of ever returning there – it seems the only one who is worrying over how you appear to others in that regard is you. That being the case, I suggest you carry out any self-psychoanalysis  and categorization in your own private journals, thanks ever so much. As it is, there is a long, long list of things about your posts to take issue with, to the extent that how you choose to live your life is vanishingly small in comparison, so I’d just as soon you keep your private affairs to yourself.<br />
  <br />
Then again, to the extent that your <i>ad hominem</i> gay-baiting slurs of the pope lay bare your hypocrisy and lack of credibility, as does your inability to differentiate an elliptical sentence from incoherent drivel (something which you even claim to be passing on to your students, no less), well, that’s a topic that might be relevant again at some point. </p>
<p>Until then, let me say it is nice to have you back by the way, after your having found this thread become so unedifying and un-educational. Speaking for myself, I’d rather return to setting the record straight regarding an admirable man who has been unjustly accused and maligned in order to score points, but if you want to keep the focus on yourself, and your transparent efforts to overshadow your bigotry with gratuitous referencces to gay-straight alliances and whatnot, then I suppose I should at least thank you for doing your part to discredit the other side. As far as I’m concerned, if there are any more gay-baiting hypocrites out there with an inflated sense of their own enlightenment, they are more than welcome to join you.</p>
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		<title>By: HA</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/06/03/us-vs-rome/#comment-57701</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[HA]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 22:35:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=7768#comment-57701</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;HA, I do not think we disagree...Thanks for indulging me.  &lt;/i&gt;


Not at all. But again, do be cautious. I am ill-equipped to determine whether your mysticism is more suited to a spiritual tome than an Oliver Sacks book, and if that is blindness on my part, I apologize, but I sincerely hope it all works out.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>HA, I do not think we disagree&#8230;Thanks for indulging me.  </i></p>
<p>Not at all. But again, do be cautious. I am ill-equipped to determine whether your mysticism is more suited to a spiritual tome than an Oliver Sacks book, and if that is blindness on my part, I apologize, but I sincerely hope it all works out.</p>
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		<title>By: digbydolben</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/06/03/us-vs-rome/#comment-57674</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[digbydolben]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 19:39:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=7768#comment-57674</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[MM, since this is your post, I thought I&#039;d tell you here that you might be interested in THIS:

http://arturovasquez.wordpress.com/2009/06/08/on-the-relationship-between-church-and-power/#comments

It&#039;s evidence &lt;i&gt;in their marriage practices&lt;/i&gt; of the kind of neo-Calvinism you&#039;re constantly alleging is the mainstay of American Catholicism--an opinion of yours with which I heartily concur!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MM, since this is your post, I thought I&#8217;d tell you here that you might be interested in THIS:</p>
<p><a href="http://arturovasquez.wordpress.com/2009/06/08/on-the-relationship-between-church-and-power/#comments" rel="nofollow">http://arturovasquez.wordpress.com/2009/06/08/on-the-relationship-between-church-and-power/#comments</a></p>
<p>It&#8217;s evidence <i>in their marriage practices</i> of the kind of neo-Calvinism you&#8217;re constantly alleging is the mainstay of American Catholicism&#8211;an opinion of yours with which I heartily concur!</p>
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		<title>By: digbydolben</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/06/03/us-vs-rome/#comment-57666</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[digbydolben]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 19:21:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=7768#comment-57666</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[And let me dig myself in deeper, and give the utterly vicious &quot;HA&quot; even more ammunition to throw at me:

I was once asked, in Los Alamos High School, in New Mexico, to help sponsor a &quot;Gay-Straight Alliance.&quot;

I agreed, with the proviso that the students who were searching for a sponsor should understand that I honestly believed that the &quot;identity&quot; they&#039;d constructed for themselves had no reality, especially at their ages. A very bright young man listened closely and then responded by saying, &quot;But that must mean, logically, that you don&#039;t believe that heterosexuality exists, either, right?&quot;

&quot;That&#039;s right,&quot; I replied, &quot;it&#039;s a &lt;i&gt;construct&lt;/i&gt;--totally artificial, but a virtuous one, which I&#039;d urge you to reconsider.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And let me dig myself in deeper, and give the utterly vicious &#8220;HA&#8221; even more ammunition to throw at me:</p>
<p>I was once asked, in Los Alamos High School, in New Mexico, to help sponsor a &#8220;Gay-Straight Alliance.&#8221;</p>
<p>I agreed, with the proviso that the students who were searching for a sponsor should understand that I honestly believed that the &#8220;identity&#8221; they&#8217;d constructed for themselves had no reality, especially at their ages. A very bright young man listened closely and then responded by saying, &#8220;But that must mean, logically, that you don&#8217;t believe that heterosexuality exists, either, right?&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;That&#8217;s right,&#8221; I replied, &#8220;it&#8217;s a <i>construct</i>&#8211;totally artificial, but a virtuous one, which I&#8217;d urge you to reconsider.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: digbydolben</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/06/03/us-vs-rome/#comment-57658</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[digbydolben]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 18:43:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=7768#comment-57658</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Please NOTE (for anybody who, unlike &quot;HA&quot; is capable of READING): I NEVER said I was &quot;heterosexual&quot; and I NEVER said I was &quot;homosexual.&quot; 

I don&#039;t believe those categories reflect anything that is real; instead, I believe that they reflect the bogus categorizing of the hyper-rationalism of the &quot;Viennese witch doctor,&quot; as Nabokov called him.

If &quot;HA&quot; or any of the other obsessively homophobic right-wing Catholics who write here had as much experience of life and of many different cultures as some of us others have had, they&#039;d realize that &quot;effeminate mannerisms&quot; are often a trait of some of the world&#039;s most voracious womanizers. The upper-class boys I grew up with in the American South would probably have killed anybody who suggested they had &quot;homosexual tendencies,&quot; and they were also generally tossed unremittingly in the throes of heterosexual lust, God bless them!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please NOTE (for anybody who, unlike &#8220;HA&#8221; is capable of READING): I NEVER said I was &#8220;heterosexual&#8221; and I NEVER said I was &#8220;homosexual.&#8221; </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t believe those categories reflect anything that is real; instead, I believe that they reflect the bogus categorizing of the hyper-rationalism of the &#8220;Viennese witch doctor,&#8221; as Nabokov called him.</p>
<p>If &#8220;HA&#8221; or any of the other obsessively homophobic right-wing Catholics who write here had as much experience of life and of many different cultures as some of us others have had, they&#8217;d realize that &#8220;effeminate mannerisms&#8221; are often a trait of some of the world&#8217;s most voracious womanizers. The upper-class boys I grew up with in the American South would probably have killed anybody who suggested they had &#8220;homosexual tendencies,&#8221; and they were also generally tossed unremittingly in the throes of heterosexual lust, God bless them!</p>
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		<title>By: Ronald King</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/06/03/us-vs-rome/#comment-57652</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ronald King]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 18:22:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=7768#comment-57652</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[HA, I do not think we disagree.  You just do not know what I know and I cannot expect you to know.  Small bits of info on blogs could not give you the information that took a lifetime of learning and experiences that God integrated into a unified awareness of human experience and the journey to God.  
Thanks for indulging me.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>HA, I do not think we disagree.  You just do not know what I know and I cannot expect you to know.  Small bits of info on blogs could not give you the information that took a lifetime of learning and experiences that God integrated into a unified awareness of human experience and the journey to God.<br />
Thanks for indulging me.</p>
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		<title>By: HA</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/06/03/us-vs-rome/#comment-57638</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[HA]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:16:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=7768#comment-57638</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt; In February 1960, Nikita Khrushchev approved a super-secret plan for destroying the Vatican’s moral authority in Western Europe…Now, Moscow wanted the Vatican discredited by its own priests, on its home territory, as a bastion of Nazism. Eugenio Pacelli, by then Pope Pius XII, was selected as the KGB’s main target, its incarnation of evil, because he had departed this world in 1958. &lt;a href=&quot;http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YTUzYmJhMGQ5Y2UxOWUzNDUyNWUwODJiOTEzYjY4NzI=&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&quot;Dead men cannot defend themselves&quot; &lt;/a&gt; was the KGB’s latest slogan.&lt;/i&gt; 
  
Oh, look - now we have some idea who originated Digby’s contention that defaming a dead man should be of no concern to anyone. Who knew? I guess by the same token, canonizing one of them should be no big deal, either, eh, Digby? 

(While I don’t how much credibility Pacepa deserves, I do believe it’s more than what is appropriate  for testimony from Soviet show trials – e.g., the kind that dupes like Goldhagen resorted to in their smear campaign.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i> In February 1960, Nikita Khrushchev approved a super-secret plan for destroying the Vatican’s moral authority in Western Europe…Now, Moscow wanted the Vatican discredited by its own priests, on its home territory, as a bastion of Nazism. Eugenio Pacelli, by then Pope Pius XII, was selected as the KGB’s main target, its incarnation of evil, because he had departed this world in 1958. <a href="http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YTUzYmJhMGQ5Y2UxOWUzNDUyNWUwODJiOTEzYjY4NzI=" rel="nofollow">&#8220;Dead men cannot defend themselves&#8221; </a> was the KGB’s latest slogan.</i><br />
 <br />
Oh, look &#8211; now we have some idea who originated Digby’s contention that defaming a dead man should be of no concern to anyone. Who knew? I guess by the same token, canonizing one of them should be no big deal, either, eh, Digby? </p>
<p>(While I don’t how much credibility Pacepa deserves, I do believe it’s more than what is appropriate  for testimony from Soviet show trials – e.g., the kind that dupes like Goldhagen resorted to in their smear campaign.)</p>
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		<title>By: HA</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/06/03/us-vs-rome/#comment-57636</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[HA]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 15:40:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=7768#comment-57636</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;Ah, you see, Ronald, what this idiot doesn’t seem to understand is that TO ME “effeminate mannerism” isn’t a slur–isn’t “gay-baiting” at all! I’m quite sure that I and a number of my friends are no less “effeminate” in our mannerisms than Ratzinger is.&lt;/i&gt; 
  
Why are you selectively truncating your words, Digby? If I recall correctly, your sneering psychoanalysis was actually about how “effeminate mannerisms” were indicative of a &lt;i&gt;“self-loathing European homosexual”.&lt;/i&gt; I’m sure there’s a slur in there somewhere, though given your selective take on the written word, I realize it might be hard for you to pick out.(And as to how much of your or your friends’ personal experiences were involved in coming up with that profile, thanks *so* much for sharing, but it’s really neither here nor there, especially given the resounding affirmation of your heterosexuality you gave us at the time.) 
  
And hey, if discrediting someone’s stand on homosexuals in the priesthood via &lt;i&gt;ad hominem&lt;/i&gt; reference to effeminate mannerisms is not a problem for you, well then, why do you have problems with &lt;i&gt;ad hominems&lt;/i&gt;. here all of a sudden? Could it be your score on hypocrisy ranks right down there with your credibility?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Ah, you see, Ronald, what this idiot doesn’t seem to understand is that TO ME “effeminate mannerism” isn’t a slur–isn’t “gay-baiting” at all! I’m quite sure that I and a number of my friends are no less “effeminate” in our mannerisms than Ratzinger is.</i><br />
 <br />
Why are you selectively truncating your words, Digby? If I recall correctly, your sneering psychoanalysis was actually about how “effeminate mannerisms” were indicative of a <i>“self-loathing European homosexual”.</i> I’m sure there’s a slur in there somewhere, though given your selective take on the written word, I realize it might be hard for you to pick out.(And as to how much of your or your friends’ personal experiences were involved in coming up with that profile, thanks *so* much for sharing, but it’s really neither here nor there, especially given the resounding affirmation of your heterosexuality you gave us at the time.)<br />
 <br />
And hey, if discrediting someone’s stand on homosexuals in the priesthood via <i>ad hominem</i> reference to effeminate mannerisms is not a problem for you, well then, why do you have problems with <i>ad hominems</i>. here all of a sudden? Could it be your score on hypocrisy ranks right down there with your credibility?</p>
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		<title>By: HA</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/06/03/us-vs-rome/#comment-57634</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[HA]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 15:14:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=7768#comment-57634</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sorry, Ronald, I think we disagree on whether or not you’re actually going to be seeking out the truth with an approach like that, and so we’ll have to leave it there. I wish I could have been more help. Perhaps someone else has more to offer.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, Ronald, I think we disagree on whether or not you’re actually going to be seeking out the truth with an approach like that, and so we’ll have to leave it there. I wish I could have been more help. Perhaps someone else has more to offer.</p>
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