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	<title>Comments on: Can We Cut Down the Rhetoric and Not Pre-Judge Díaz?</title>
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		<title>By: Gerald L. Campbell</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/05/28/can-we-cut-down-the-rhetoric-and-not-pre-judge-diaz/#comment-56719</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gerald L. Campbell]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 May 2009 21:02:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=7642#comment-56719</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Zak,

Michael stated my meaning correctly.  Perhaps I used poor wording.

At any event, if you&#039;ve read anything I&#039;ve written over the past year or so -- not the political stuff but the philosophical stuff -- you see mentioned the question of anti-intellectualism over and over again.  I do this not as a cheap shot at anyone.  Quite the contrary.  I believe it to be the most serious issue facing the Church today.  If this issue can&#039;t be address forthrightly little else will be resolved.  

What I&#039;m actually referring to is the place that philosophy, the intellect, and the intellectual order occupy in arriving at truth.  The American Catholic Church is in an especial predicament in this regard.  Our culture is fundamentally Protestant.  Indeed, we are the only nation fundamentally grounded on Protestant principles.  All other nations were built on, or evolved out of, other cultural forms.  But Protestantism is our basic culture and, at the core, it is anti-intellectual.  Why?  The Fall.  Because of the Fall, the intellect was so maimed that it lost its capacity to know truth.  This means that the intellectual order is beyond our grasp.  This means further that there is no room for the analogy of being in the reasoning process.  The analogy of faith is all there is.  

This poses considerable difficulty when ethical and political challenges are discussed in the practical order.  Catholics today not trained properly in the discipline of philosophy.  In Catholic universities, the study of philosophy has been transmuted into the study of the HISTORY of philosophy.  But these two curriculums are not the same.  The methodology of history does not flow from ontological principles.  It is grounded in some form of relativism.  

You might recall an article referenced on Vox Nova from First Things about a year ago.  I don&#039;t recall its title right now.  But the point was that theologians today are not philosophically grounded as was the case with Henri de Lubac and others.  Earlier theologians were well ground in philosophy AND theology.  Without such grounding, their ability to do theology was severely limited.

Something similar happens in the practical order.  Catholics on the blog tend to discuss ethical and political issues primarily in the abstract.  The inclination is to reason directly from moral theology (or principle) to public policy.  But this is nonsense.  What is discounted in such thinking is the entire realm of the contingent.

Unless greater care is given to comprehending the intellectual order -- and how that order is analogically manifested from the lowest reality to the highest -- the Catholic contribution to the national dialogue will continue to remain abstract.  But this will severely hamper their impact.  For when dialogue is reduced to a question of normative vs. secular principles, the secular will generally win out.

To be persuasive, Catholics need to focus their attention to the concrete where the act is actually being made.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Zak,</p>
<p>Michael stated my meaning correctly.  Perhaps I used poor wording.</p>
<p>At any event, if you&#8217;ve read anything I&#8217;ve written over the past year or so &#8212; not the political stuff but the philosophical stuff &#8212; you see mentioned the question of anti-intellectualism over and over again.  I do this not as a cheap shot at anyone.  Quite the contrary.  I believe it to be the most serious issue facing the Church today.  If this issue can&#8217;t be address forthrightly little else will be resolved.  </p>
<p>What I&#8217;m actually referring to is the place that philosophy, the intellect, and the intellectual order occupy in arriving at truth.  The American Catholic Church is in an especial predicament in this regard.  Our culture is fundamentally Protestant.  Indeed, we are the only nation fundamentally grounded on Protestant principles.  All other nations were built on, or evolved out of, other cultural forms.  But Protestantism is our basic culture and, at the core, it is anti-intellectual.  Why?  The Fall.  Because of the Fall, the intellect was so maimed that it lost its capacity to know truth.  This means that the intellectual order is beyond our grasp.  This means further that there is no room for the analogy of being in the reasoning process.  The analogy of faith is all there is.  </p>
<p>This poses considerable difficulty when ethical and political challenges are discussed in the practical order.  Catholics today not trained properly in the discipline of philosophy.  In Catholic universities, the study of philosophy has been transmuted into the study of the HISTORY of philosophy.  But these two curriculums are not the same.  The methodology of history does not flow from ontological principles.  It is grounded in some form of relativism.  </p>
<p>You might recall an article referenced on Vox Nova from First Things about a year ago.  I don&#8217;t recall its title right now.  But the point was that theologians today are not philosophically grounded as was the case with Henri de Lubac and others.  Earlier theologians were well ground in philosophy AND theology.  Without such grounding, their ability to do theology was severely limited.</p>
<p>Something similar happens in the practical order.  Catholics on the blog tend to discuss ethical and political issues primarily in the abstract.  The inclination is to reason directly from moral theology (or principle) to public policy.  But this is nonsense.  What is discounted in such thinking is the entire realm of the contingent.</p>
<p>Unless greater care is given to comprehending the intellectual order &#8212; and how that order is analogically manifested from the lowest reality to the highest &#8212; the Catholic contribution to the national dialogue will continue to remain abstract.  But this will severely hamper their impact.  For when dialogue is reduced to a question of normative vs. secular principles, the secular will generally win out.</p>
<p>To be persuasive, Catholics need to focus their attention to the concrete where the act is actually being made.</p>
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		<title>By: Gabriel Austin</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/05/28/can-we-cut-down-the-rhetoric-and-not-pre-judge-diaz/#comment-56713</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gabriel Austin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 May 2009 20:23:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=7642#comment-56713</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Henry Karlson Says May 28, 2009 at 10:12 am
&quot;Jeremy
Look to the large number of silent bishops — as St Thomas More points out, silence means consent&quot;.

I fear you have been seeing too many movies. St. Thomas never said so silly a thing, for he knew its falsity. You have but to consider Our Lord before Pilate.

The notion is one of English lawyers used to condemn the Catholics who refused to accept fat Henry&#039;s headship of the Church in England.

Our amendment that a person may not be called to testify against himself was directed exactly at this idea.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Henry Karlson Says May 28, 2009 at 10:12 am<br />
&#8220;Jeremy<br />
Look to the large number of silent bishops — as St Thomas More points out, silence means consent&#8221;.</p>
<p>I fear you have been seeing too many movies. St. Thomas never said so silly a thing, for he knew its falsity. You have but to consider Our Lord before Pilate.</p>
<p>The notion is one of English lawyers used to condemn the Catholics who refused to accept fat Henry&#8217;s headship of the Church in England.</p>
<p>Our amendment that a person may not be called to testify against himself was directed exactly at this idea.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael J. Iafrate</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/05/28/can-we-cut-down-the-rhetoric-and-not-pre-judge-diaz/#comment-56704</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael J. Iafrate]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 May 2009 18:30:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=7642#comment-56704</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;I&gt;I disagree that hostility to Rahner is anti-intellectualism. &lt;/I&gt;

Gerald did not say that &quot;hostility to Rahner is anti-intellectualism.&quot; He said that dismissing a scholar and questioning his Catholicism because he studies Rahner is anti-intellectualism.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I disagree that hostility to Rahner is anti-intellectualism. </i></p>
<p>Gerald did not say that &#8220;hostility to Rahner is anti-intellectualism.&#8221; He said that dismissing a scholar and questioning his Catholicism because he studies Rahner is anti-intellectualism.</p>
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		<title>By: Zak</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/05/28/can-we-cut-down-the-rhetoric-and-not-pre-judge-diaz/#comment-56703</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zak]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 May 2009 18:26:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=7642#comment-56703</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree with Gerald that there specific areas (and he has cited one) where a good ambassador to the Vatican can achieve something.

I disagree that hostility to Rahner is anti-intellectualism. I think it&#039;s driven by opposition to what is perceived as a theology that has been abstracted too much from its roots in tradition and scripture.  Whether Rahner is an example of this I am unqualified to judge, and many theologians who have faced accusations like this in the past have been vindicated.  I would just say that anti-intellectualism is a cudgel with which to beat opponents rather than an accurate characterization of the concerns.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Gerald that there specific areas (and he has cited one) where a good ambassador to the Vatican can achieve something.</p>
<p>I disagree that hostility to Rahner is anti-intellectualism. I think it&#8217;s driven by opposition to what is perceived as a theology that has been abstracted too much from its roots in tradition and scripture.  Whether Rahner is an example of this I am unqualified to judge, and many theologians who have faced accusations like this in the past have been vindicated.  I would just say that anti-intellectualism is a cudgel with which to beat opponents rather than an accurate characterization of the concerns.</p>
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		<title>By: Gerald L. Campbell</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/05/28/can-we-cut-down-the-rhetoric-and-not-pre-judge-diaz/#comment-56696</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gerald L. Campbell]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 May 2009 16:56:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=7642#comment-56696</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The ambassador to the Vatican played a significant foreign policy role during the Reagan Administration.  It could play a similar role today, especially in deepening a dialogue with the Muslim world.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The ambassador to the Vatican played a significant foreign policy role during the Reagan Administration.  It could play a similar role today, especially in deepening a dialogue with the Muslim world.</p>
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		<title>By: M.Z.</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/05/28/can-we-cut-down-the-rhetoric-and-not-pre-judge-diaz/#comment-56695</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[M.Z.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 May 2009 16:40:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=7642#comment-56695</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There has been all too much speculation on a very, very minor diplomatic post.  We didn&#039;t even have an ambassador to the Vatican prior to Reagan, if memory serves.  Too many people care passionately about an issue not worth caring about.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There has been all too much speculation on a very, very minor diplomatic post.  We didn&#8217;t even have an ambassador to the Vatican prior to Reagan, if memory serves.  Too many people care passionately about an issue not worth caring about.</p>
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		<title>By: Gerald L. Campbell</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/05/28/can-we-cut-down-the-rhetoric-and-not-pre-judge-diaz/#comment-56692</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gerald L. Campbell]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 May 2009 16:05:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=7642#comment-56692</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;The most preposterous charge I’ve seen lodged so far is that because one of Diaz’s specialties is Karl Rahner, therefore his Catholicism is suspect.&quot;

Bingo, Mark.

Diaz was pre-approved by the Vatican before Obama made the announcement.  Too bad the Vatican was unaware that Diaz had studied Rahner in depth before they approved of his pending appointment.  I&#039;m sure if they knew he was messing around with Rahner, they too would be howling like cats in a dog pen at the appointment.

What&#039;s with this anti-intellectual Catholicism (Isn&#039;t that a non sequitur?)?  What are its origins?  What does it say of the future?  It&#039;s more like a theocratic/political movement than anything that resembles Catholic thought and judgment.  Like all movements rooted in opinion, this one is dangerous.  For America, it is particularly so.  Fear does have a grip over people&#039;s minds.

&quot;For which I burnt in inward, swelt&#039;ring hate,
And festered ranking malice in my breast.&quot;  -- Marston]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The most preposterous charge I’ve seen lodged so far is that because one of Diaz’s specialties is Karl Rahner, therefore his Catholicism is suspect.&#8221;</p>
<p>Bingo, Mark.</p>
<p>Diaz was pre-approved by the Vatican before Obama made the announcement.  Too bad the Vatican was unaware that Diaz had studied Rahner in depth before they approved of his pending appointment.  I&#8217;m sure if they knew he was messing around with Rahner, they too would be howling like cats in a dog pen at the appointment.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s with this anti-intellectual Catholicism (Isn&#8217;t that a non sequitur?)?  What are its origins?  What does it say of the future?  It&#8217;s more like a theocratic/political movement than anything that resembles Catholic thought and judgment.  Like all movements rooted in opinion, this one is dangerous.  For America, it is particularly so.  Fear does have a grip over people&#8217;s minds.</p>
<p>&#8220;For which I burnt in inward, swelt&#8217;ring hate,<br />
And festered ranking malice in my breast.&#8221;  &#8212; Marston</p>
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		<title>By: Zak</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/05/28/can-we-cut-down-the-rhetoric-and-not-pre-judge-diaz/#comment-56685</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zak]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 May 2009 14:53:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=7642#comment-56685</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Henry,
  You say that it&#039;s only Novak et al who are dividing the church through criticizing the Vatican (although generally criticism has been limited to the laypeople running and writing for L&#039;Osservatore Romano or, at most, some members of the Secretariat of State).  Certainly, the intemperate rhetoric used by some can ahve that effect.

But look at Obama&#039;s rhetorical style.  How did he respond to Republican opposition to the stimulus package?  He said they were playing politics, dismissing their objections.  How do he and his supporters respond to opposition to his appearance at(or his honorary degree from) Notre Dame?  By saying opponents are trying to divide people and play politics.  

Furthermore, the attempt to use the Vatican&#039;s impulse to cooperate on issues of agreement as a wedge to divide the local church in the face of opposition from the local hierarchy was a common tactic of anti-clerical forces in Europe - in 1890s France, in pre-Franco Spain, in 1930s Germany, in the Communist bloc.  First you make the most outspoken leaders in the local hierarchy appear isolated.  Then you build up forces in the Church that are most congenial to your agenda.  Then you try to make your supporters the sole legitimate voices of the (faithful?).  Other common tactics are to undermine the Church&#039;s role in education, to reduce the amount of money it gets (through, perhaps, reducing tax deductions for charitable donations?) and to offer support the charitable activities of the church, while treating their religious roles as an extravagance.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Henry,<br />
  You say that it&#8217;s only Novak et al who are dividing the church through criticizing the Vatican (although generally criticism has been limited to the laypeople running and writing for L&#8217;Osservatore Romano or, at most, some members of the Secretariat of State).  Certainly, the intemperate rhetoric used by some can ahve that effect.</p>
<p>But look at Obama&#8217;s rhetorical style.  How did he respond to Republican opposition to the stimulus package?  He said they were playing politics, dismissing their objections.  How do he and his supporters respond to opposition to his appearance at(or his honorary degree from) Notre Dame?  By saying opponents are trying to divide people and play politics.  </p>
<p>Furthermore, the attempt to use the Vatican&#8217;s impulse to cooperate on issues of agreement as a wedge to divide the local church in the face of opposition from the local hierarchy was a common tactic of anti-clerical forces in Europe &#8211; in 1890s France, in pre-Franco Spain, in 1930s Germany, in the Communist bloc.  First you make the most outspoken leaders in the local hierarchy appear isolated.  Then you build up forces in the Church that are most congenial to your agenda.  Then you try to make your supporters the sole legitimate voices of the (faithful?).  Other common tactics are to undermine the Church&#8217;s role in education, to reduce the amount of money it gets (through, perhaps, reducing tax deductions for charitable donations?) and to offer support the charitable activities of the church, while treating their religious roles as an extravagance.</p>
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		<title>By: Zak</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/05/28/can-we-cut-down-the-rhetoric-and-not-pre-judge-diaz/#comment-56683</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zak]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 May 2009 14:38:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=7642#comment-56683</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think it&#039;s a little silly that people say, I&#039;m suprised someone with a higher profile wasn&#039;t picked when I think very few people could indentify the two ambassadors between Ray Flynn and Mary Ann Glendon, and even fewer would have been able to say anything about them when they were selected other than, &quot;wow, they raised a lot of money for George Bush.&quot;

I think it&#039;s a greater scandal that the U.S. sees diplomatic posts as an opportunity for rewarding campaign donors.  I had hoped Obama would be better on this issue than Bush, but the ambassadors to Japan, France, and UK are all remarkable chiefly because they were large donors to Obama&#039;s campaign.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it&#8217;s a little silly that people say, I&#8217;m suprised someone with a higher profile wasn&#8217;t picked when I think very few people could indentify the two ambassadors between Ray Flynn and Mary Ann Glendon, and even fewer would have been able to say anything about them when they were selected other than, &#8220;wow, they raised a lot of money for George Bush.&#8221;</p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s a greater scandal that the U.S. sees diplomatic posts as an opportunity for rewarding campaign donors.  I had hoped Obama would be better on this issue than Bush, but the ambassadors to Japan, France, and UK are all remarkable chiefly because they were large donors to Obama&#8217;s campaign.</p>
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		<title>By: Henry Karlson</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/05/28/can-we-cut-down-the-rhetoric-and-not-pre-judge-diaz/#comment-56669</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Henry Karlson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 May 2009 08:11:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=7642#comment-56669</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Michael

Yes, so few who criticize Rahner know him, and, as you said, so many have abused him on issues like the anonymous Christian, it&#039;s quite sad. The thing is, I think the same is true with Balthasar and Ratzinger -- their fans know them as well as Aquinas, which isn&#039;t that much.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael</p>
<p>Yes, so few who criticize Rahner know him, and, as you said, so many have abused him on issues like the anonymous Christian, it&#8217;s quite sad. The thing is, I think the same is true with Balthasar and Ratzinger &#8212; their fans know them as well as Aquinas, which isn&#8217;t that much.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael J. Iafrate</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/05/28/can-we-cut-down-the-rhetoric-and-not-pre-judge-diaz/#comment-56658</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael J. Iafrate]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 May 2009 00:44:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=7642#comment-56658</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[These people do not seem to realize that, although Balthasar and Ratzinger&#039;s theologies are &quot;hot&quot; right now, the post-Vatican II Church has been deeply and &lt;I&gt;officially&lt;/I&gt; influenced by Rahner. The people that criticize all things &quot;Rahnerian&quot; (which does not mean one thing!) are themselves &quot;Rahnerian&quot; although they are not aware of it. There is no turning back from many of these insights -- legitimate Rahnerian insights, mind you, not distortions or misunderstandings of his thinking like the many ways &quot;anonymous Christianity&quot; gets misrepresented, both by Rahner&#039;s supporters and his critics.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>These people do not seem to realize that, although Balthasar and Ratzinger&#8217;s theologies are &#8220;hot&#8221; right now, the post-Vatican II Church has been deeply and <i>officially</i> influenced by Rahner. The people that criticize all things &#8220;Rahnerian&#8221; (which does not mean one thing!) are themselves &#8220;Rahnerian&#8221; although they are not aware of it. There is no turning back from many of these insights &#8212; legitimate Rahnerian insights, mind you, not distortions or misunderstandings of his thinking like the many ways &#8220;anonymous Christianity&#8221; gets misrepresented, both by Rahner&#8217;s supporters and his critics.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark DeFrancisis</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/05/28/can-we-cut-down-the-rhetoric-and-not-pre-judge-diaz/#comment-56655</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark DeFrancisis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 May 2009 00:24:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=7642#comment-56655</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The most preposterous charge I&#039;ve seen lodged so far is that because one of Diaz&#039;s specialties is Karl Rahner, therefore his Catholicism is suspect.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The most preposterous charge I&#8217;ve seen lodged so far is that because one of Diaz&#8217;s specialties is Karl Rahner, therefore his Catholicism is suspect.</p>
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