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	<title>Comments on: A Brief Defense of &#8216;Capitalism&#8217;</title>
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	<description>Catholic perspectives on culture, society, and politics</description>
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		<title>By: Sam Rocha</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/04/29/a-brief-defense-of-capitalism/#comment-54654</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sam Rocha]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 May 2009 19:18:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[JTG: I suggest reading with a bit more creativity. Aphorism and nuance are not crazy-talk. They just require better hermeneutics. Sorry to disappoint. For the record: &quot;Raw, brute force&quot; refers to the notion of unrestrained freedom that brings to mind a waterfall or similar.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JTG: I suggest reading with a bit more creativity. Aphorism and nuance are not crazy-talk. They just require better hermeneutics. Sorry to disappoint. For the record: &#8220;Raw, brute force&#8221; refers to the notion of unrestrained freedom that brings to mind a waterfall or similar.</p>
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		<title>By: W.V. Nordberg</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/04/29/a-brief-defense-of-capitalism/#comment-54622</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[W.V. Nordberg]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 May 2009 16:29:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=7139#comment-54622</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The essence of temporal human fulfillment is Liberty -- not to be confused with licentiousness, bullyism, and egocentrism which are legitimately regulated by the State. Liberty is the quality of possessing all of the inalienable rights bestowed by God, not those paid out by the State to its patrons. The most terrible threat to these inalienable rights is the power of the State and its fawning political allies who are motivated by the troika of greed, envy, and materialism. In the end it is only the State that has the absolute ability to destroy the individual which it always does in its never-ending quest to acquire ever more power. If we can agree that the power of the State should be in the hands of its citizens, and not professional politicians, then all other political arguments become academic. A BIG PART OF THE SOLUTION IS TERM LIMITS, AND NO PERKS, PENSION, OR LOBBYING AFTER LEAVING OFFICE. When the statists are required to live under the same laws as the common man then Liberty is assured!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The essence of temporal human fulfillment is Liberty &#8212; not to be confused with licentiousness, bullyism, and egocentrism which are legitimately regulated by the State. Liberty is the quality of possessing all of the inalienable rights bestowed by God, not those paid out by the State to its patrons. The most terrible threat to these inalienable rights is the power of the State and its fawning political allies who are motivated by the troika of greed, envy, and materialism. In the end it is only the State that has the absolute ability to destroy the individual which it always does in its never-ending quest to acquire ever more power. If we can agree that the power of the State should be in the hands of its citizens, and not professional politicians, then all other political arguments become academic. A BIG PART OF THE SOLUTION IS TERM LIMITS, AND NO PERKS, PENSION, OR LOBBYING AFTER LEAVING OFFICE. When the statists are required to live under the same laws as the common man then Liberty is assured!</p>
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		<title>By: JTG</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/04/29/a-brief-defense-of-capitalism/#comment-54486</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[JTG]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2009 22:02:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=7139#comment-54486</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;And perfect freedom is not the raw, brute force of libertarianism, to be sure. At the same time, it also is that imposing force.&quot;

What does this even mean? 

The author pretends to be sensitive to language and words only to depict an ideology based on non-aggression as a &quot;raw, brute force&quot;?!!

Certainly no &quot;throw[ing] language aside&quot; here...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;And perfect freedom is not the raw, brute force of libertarianism, to be sure. At the same time, it also is that imposing force.&#8221;</p>
<p>What does this even mean? </p>
<p>The author pretends to be sensitive to language and words only to depict an ideology based on non-aggression as a &#8220;raw, brute force&#8221;?!!</p>
<p>Certainly no &#8220;throw[ing] language aside&#8221; here&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: DB</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/04/29/a-brief-defense-of-capitalism/#comment-54471</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[DB]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2009 21:05:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=7139#comment-54471</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Capitalism by definition gives precedence to &#039;capital&#039; and makes labor subordinate. In reality it is labor which is the driving force of the economy, without manual or intellectual labor there would be no capital.

The current economic system is more fascist than free market, it is based on the state funneling tax revenue to corporations to make war technologies in a guaranteed market, this feeds the Keynesian multiplier effect in consumer goods and the expansion of money supply and debt, benefiting the few and enslaving the many.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Capitalism by definition gives precedence to &#8216;capital&#8217; and makes labor subordinate. In reality it is labor which is the driving force of the economy, without manual or intellectual labor there would be no capital.</p>
<p>The current economic system is more fascist than free market, it is based on the state funneling tax revenue to corporations to make war technologies in a guaranteed market, this feeds the Keynesian multiplier effect in consumer goods and the expansion of money supply and debt, benefiting the few and enslaving the many.</p>
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		<title>By: Sam Rocha</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/04/29/a-brief-defense-of-capitalism/#comment-54448</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sam Rocha]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2009 19:03:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=7139#comment-54448</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[JC: Frankly, I don&#039;t think any of those things naturally correspond to any of the language other than to serve the arguments of the ones who want to preserve them (the language) or dismantle them. And that fight is not very interesting to me.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JC: Frankly, I don&#8217;t think any of those things naturally correspond to any of the language other than to serve the arguments of the ones who want to preserve them (the language) or dismantle them. And that fight is not very interesting to me.</p>
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		<title>By: JC</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/04/29/a-brief-defense-of-capitalism/#comment-54444</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[JC]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2009 18:53:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=7139#comment-54444</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The problem is that there are really two different things grouped together when the terms &quot;laissez-faire&quot;, &quot;capitalism&quot; and &quot;free market&quot; are used:
1.  A sitaution where corporations are allowed to run rampant.
2.  A situation where providers and consumers can truly operate in freedom.  
Capitalism is usually marketed by Republicans as #2, but it ends up being #1.
Distributism, and what is described in the social justice documents, is more like #2 than it is either &quot;capitalism&quot; or &quot;socialism.&quot;

Capitalism is not a free market, because the robber barons control the market.
Socialism is not &quot;worker&#039;s ownership of their work,&quot; because it is a lie that the government serves the workers.

Using the Joe the Plumber cliche, a proper economy would allow Joe Plumber to own his own plumbing business, but it would *not* allow him to make $200,000 a year profit, unless he needs it to support 10 kids and his elderly parents and in-laws.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem is that there are really two different things grouped together when the terms &#8220;laissez-faire&#8221;, &#8220;capitalism&#8221; and &#8220;free market&#8221; are used:<br />
1.  A sitaution where corporations are allowed to run rampant.<br />
2.  A situation where providers and consumers can truly operate in freedom.<br />
Capitalism is usually marketed by Republicans as #2, but it ends up being #1.<br />
Distributism, and what is described in the social justice documents, is more like #2 than it is either &#8220;capitalism&#8221; or &#8220;socialism.&#8221;</p>
<p>Capitalism is not a free market, because the robber barons control the market.<br />
Socialism is not &#8220;worker&#8217;s ownership of their work,&#8221; because it is a lie that the government serves the workers.</p>
<p>Using the Joe the Plumber cliche, a proper economy would allow Joe Plumber to own his own plumbing business, but it would *not* allow him to make $200,000 a year profit, unless he needs it to support 10 kids and his elderly parents and in-laws.</p>
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		<title>By: Capitalism, A Beneficial Exchange &#171; The American Catholic</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/04/29/a-brief-defense-of-capitalism/#comment-54403</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Capitalism, A Beneficial Exchange &#171; The American Catholic]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2009 16:46:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=7139#comment-54403</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] A Beneficial&#160;Exchange  Blogger Sam Rocha wrote a post the other day titled, &#8220;A Brief Defense of &#8216;Capitalism&#8217;&amp;#822.... However, Rocha&#8217;s attempt is, I think, somewhat hampered by the fact that he by his own [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] A Beneficial&nbsp;Exchange  Blogger Sam Rocha wrote a post the other day titled, &#8220;A Brief Defense of &#8216;Capitalism&#8217;&amp;#822&#8230;. However, Rocha&#8217;s attempt is, I think, somewhat hampered by the fact that he by his own [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Hargrave</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/04/29/a-brief-defense-of-capitalism/#comment-54337</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Joe Hargrave]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2009 02:23:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=7139#comment-54337</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, I agree BA. After all, much of what Marx wrote about capitalism was descriptive, and many (but of course not all) of those descriptions would hardly be denied by the Church insofar as they are true. The same would apply for classical liberalism.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I agree BA. After all, much of what Marx wrote about capitalism was descriptive, and many (but of course not all) of those descriptions would hardly be denied by the Church insofar as they are true. The same would apply for classical liberalism.</p>
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		<title>By: Blackadder</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/04/29/a-brief-defense-of-capitalism/#comment-54329</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Blackadder]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 22:59:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=7139#comment-54329</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;The idea that individual preferences pursued in a totally free market will lead to the best social result is explicitly condemned.&lt;/i&gt;

This is correct. However, one has to be careful about distinguishing between two different ways of understanding a normative claim. One could take it to be a normative claim, that is, that the best social result just is the result that emerges from individual preferences pursued in a totally free market. Alternatively, one could take it to be a descriptive claim, that is, that is that individual preferences pursued in a totally free market will in fact produce the best social result, as judged by objective criteria independently of the process. 

I don&#039;t actually think either claim is right (there is a kernel of truth in both of them, but neither is true as an absolute). Nevertheless, it seems to make more sense to take the condemnations of this idea found in Catholic Social Thought to be condemning the normative as opposed to the descriptive claim.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>The idea that individual preferences pursued in a totally free market will lead to the best social result is explicitly condemned.</i></p>
<p>This is correct. However, one has to be careful about distinguishing between two different ways of understanding a normative claim. One could take it to be a normative claim, that is, that the best social result just is the result that emerges from individual preferences pursued in a totally free market. Alternatively, one could take it to be a descriptive claim, that is, that is that individual preferences pursued in a totally free market will in fact produce the best social result, as judged by objective criteria independently of the process. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t actually think either claim is right (there is a kernel of truth in both of them, but neither is true as an absolute). Nevertheless, it seems to make more sense to take the condemnations of this idea found in Catholic Social Thought to be condemning the normative as opposed to the descriptive claim.</p>
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		<title>By: Liam</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/04/29/a-brief-defense-of-capitalism/#comment-54325</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Liam]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 22:20:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=7139#comment-54325</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, the term &quot;capitalism&quot; has become equivocal. While there has arisen an ideological, prescriptive version - the Club for Growth, for example - really capitalism is descriptive rather than prescriptive. It describes how people tend to function under certain conditions of freedom to exchange. Too many people think Adam Smith was being more prescriptive than he actually was. 

Socialism, by contrast, is at heart prescriptive rather than descriptive, though it too can partake of descriptive meaning.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, the term &#8220;capitalism&#8221; has become equivocal. While there has arisen an ideological, prescriptive version &#8211; the Club for Growth, for example &#8211; really capitalism is descriptive rather than prescriptive. It describes how people tend to function under certain conditions of freedom to exchange. Too many people think Adam Smith was being more prescriptive than he actually was. </p>
<p>Socialism, by contrast, is at heart prescriptive rather than descriptive, though it too can partake of descriptive meaning.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Hargrave</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/04/29/a-brief-defense-of-capitalism/#comment-54305</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Joe Hargrave]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 20:52:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=7139#comment-54305</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It is true that capitalism has never caught on as an ism; usually people who defend this system are libertarians, Objectivists, or what have you. Capitalism is not an official set of policies like socialism might be. 

For Marx, capitalism is &#039;generalized commodity production&#039;, with &#039;commodity&#039; understood to mean a thing produced solely for exchange, as opposed to immediate use. Capitalism exists when most production is for exchange instead of subsistence. All of this for various reasons presupposes the separation of the workers from the instruments of production. So that is the other defining feature of capitalism. 

It might be accurate to say that for socialists, at least in the Marxian tradition, capitalism has always been understood primarily as a system of production, distinct from all those that preceded it. 

In libertarian thought that I have seen, the production side is not nearly represented enough as the exchange side: if exchange is free, there is capitalism, and to whatever extent it becomes less free, it becomes more socialistic. In this way there can be some perennial, historical &#039;conflict&#039; between capitalism and socialism that pre-dates the 19th century.

Historically, the Church has looked at capitalism as the employment of wage-labor by capital; it accepts that it is a &#039;new&#039; economic form as opposed to what existed before, in feudal times or earlier.

This is why she could simultaneously declare that capitalism was not intrinsically immoral, and that liberalism - including economic liberalism, as is made abundantly clear by Pius XI - was. The idea that individual preferences pursued in a totally free market will lead to the best social result is explicitly condemned. 

But the capitalist system of production is not condemned in itself, provided that employers respect the full list of workers rights outlined by the Church. The preference is for more workers to become owners so that all partake in the benefits of private property ownership.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is true that capitalism has never caught on as an ism; usually people who defend this system are libertarians, Objectivists, or what have you. Capitalism is not an official set of policies like socialism might be. </p>
<p>For Marx, capitalism is &#8216;generalized commodity production&#8217;, with &#8216;commodity&#8217; understood to mean a thing produced solely for exchange, as opposed to immediate use. Capitalism exists when most production is for exchange instead of subsistence. All of this for various reasons presupposes the separation of the workers from the instruments of production. So that is the other defining feature of capitalism. </p>
<p>It might be accurate to say that for socialists, at least in the Marxian tradition, capitalism has always been understood primarily as a system of production, distinct from all those that preceded it. </p>
<p>In libertarian thought that I have seen, the production side is not nearly represented enough as the exchange side: if exchange is free, there is capitalism, and to whatever extent it becomes less free, it becomes more socialistic. In this way there can be some perennial, historical &#8216;conflict&#8217; between capitalism and socialism that pre-dates the 19th century.</p>
<p>Historically, the Church has looked at capitalism as the employment of wage-labor by capital; it accepts that it is a &#8216;new&#8217; economic form as opposed to what existed before, in feudal times or earlier.</p>
<p>This is why she could simultaneously declare that capitalism was not intrinsically immoral, and that liberalism &#8211; including economic liberalism, as is made abundantly clear by Pius XI &#8211; was. The idea that individual preferences pursued in a totally free market will lead to the best social result is explicitly condemned. </p>
<p>But the capitalist system of production is not condemned in itself, provided that employers respect the full list of workers rights outlined by the Church. The preference is for more workers to become owners so that all partake in the benefits of private property ownership.</p>
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		<title>By: blackadderiv</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/04/29/a-brief-defense-of-capitalism/#comment-54300</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[blackadderiv]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 20:29:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=7139#comment-54300</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sam,

I wrote the following &lt;a href=&quot;http://rimatara.blogspot.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;at your old blog&lt;/a&gt;, but for the benefit of others I will reproduce it here: 

It shouldn&#039;t be surprising that &quot;socialism&quot; should have a better ring to it than &quot;capitalism.&quot; After all, both terms were created by proponents of socialism, and the name a group picks for itself is liable to be more flattering than a name picked by the group&#039;s enemies.

I prefer whenever possible to speak about free markets rather than about capitalism (though I&#039;ll admit that sometimes the latter must be used simply for lack of a better alternative).

&quot;Capitalism&quot; is kind of a weird term, in that it is an &#039;ism&#039; that isn&#039;t quite like any other &#039;ism.&#039;

A socialist is someone who believes in socialism.

A fascist is someone who believes in fascism.

A monarchist is someone who believes in monarchism.

And a capitalist is a guy who owns a bank or a factory and has a lot of money.

To quote Sesame Street, one of these things is not like the others.

I also think that, to the extent people use &quot;capitalism&quot; to refer to a type of economic system or to a set of beliefs about how the economy should be run, the term is broader than what is typically implied by the phrase &quot;free market.&quot; One can speak without contradiction of crony capitalism, monopoly capitalism, and so forth, whereas using such adjectives before the phrase &quot;free market&quot; doesn&#039;t quite sound right.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sam,</p>
<p>I wrote the following <a href="http://rimatara.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">at your old blog</a>, but for the benefit of others I will reproduce it here: </p>
<p>It shouldn&#8217;t be surprising that &#8220;socialism&#8221; should have a better ring to it than &#8220;capitalism.&#8221; After all, both terms were created by proponents of socialism, and the name a group picks for itself is liable to be more flattering than a name picked by the group&#8217;s enemies.</p>
<p>I prefer whenever possible to speak about free markets rather than about capitalism (though I&#8217;ll admit that sometimes the latter must be used simply for lack of a better alternative).</p>
<p>&#8220;Capitalism&#8221; is kind of a weird term, in that it is an &#8216;ism&#8217; that isn&#8217;t quite like any other &#8216;ism.&#8217;</p>
<p>A socialist is someone who believes in socialism.</p>
<p>A fascist is someone who believes in fascism.</p>
<p>A monarchist is someone who believes in monarchism.</p>
<p>And a capitalist is a guy who owns a bank or a factory and has a lot of money.</p>
<p>To quote Sesame Street, one of these things is not like the others.</p>
<p>I also think that, to the extent people use &#8220;capitalism&#8221; to refer to a type of economic system or to a set of beliefs about how the economy should be run, the term is broader than what is typically implied by the phrase &#8220;free market.&#8221; One can speak without contradiction of crony capitalism, monopoly capitalism, and so forth, whereas using such adjectives before the phrase &#8220;free market&#8221; doesn&#8217;t quite sound right.</p>
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