Comments on: Bush the Gnostic

By: Harry

Harry — Fri, 17 Apr 2009 23:30:22 +0000

What do you think that President Obama is when it comes to religion?

By: Zach

Zach — Fri, 17 Apr 2009 22:18:50 +0000

M.Z. – the notion that a pre-emptive war could be just is not a new idea. I’m pretty sure Thomas Aquinas tackles that very idea in the Summa somewhere. I’ll work on getting a reference.

By: M.Z.

M.Z. — Fri, 17 Apr 2009 21:39:25 +0000

I think it is also a pet peeve among many in the Orthodox and Catholic communions to have people claim the ideas from Rousseau and onwards are traditional or traditionalist, particularly in the religious context. Yes, it kind of makes it hard to have anything destinctly American be traditional, but by the same token it tends to better respect the 1700 years of history before that better.

By: M.Z.

M.Z. — Fri, 17 Apr 2009 20:32:52 +0000

Perhaps this will help JH. There is nothing theologically conservative about opposing gay marriage or being against abortion. Neither issue is of itself a real mark of orthodoxy, although they tend to be decent predicters. (Whether theologically conservative is even a decent descriptor is probably a debate for another day. I tend to think it isn’t.) What Sullivan and others like to do is base stealing here. Guy X opposes abortion and is religious. Therefore he is a theocon. Alas he supports pre-emptive war. Ergo pre-emptive war is theologically conservative. Everyone knows though that the justness of pre-emptive war is a recent theological innovation, regardless of whether or not one thinks pre-emptive war could be just.

By: jh

jh — Fri, 17 Apr 2009 19:41:24 +0000

Paul I might be missing the point. I guess I would like to see more meat to this argument. I can’t help but note that the Catholics he referenced that Opposed Bush often didn’t like his views on immigration, they didn’t like all this Free Trade etc etc

At Vox Nova’s Cousin blog :) they were discussing this and I thought Darwin made two short comments that sort of mirror my line of thought as to these charges

http://the-american-catholic.com/2009/04/16/bush-orthodoxy-damon-linker/#comment-9048

I just find that this not meet reality

Catholic Bush supporters disagreed with him on various issues (See immigration) and other aspects of his White House policy

By: Paul in the GNW

Paul in the GNW — Fri, 17 Apr 2009 19:19:58 +0000

You may say it’s vague or accuse someone of being “paleo Catholic” but you are missing the point – which is just as true on the “left” as on the “right.”

If you get too enamored with a politician it is easy to start twisting your theology to fit the politics you are supporting.

Something I see on Vox-Nova pretty much every day. I’m just agreeing that Bush supporters did it too.

By: jh

jh — Fri, 17 Apr 2009 19:02:09 +0000

Zach I agree it is very vague and as the these various wings of the Conservative movement have been repeating this meme all week long I still see little meat attached to the argument.

The largely Pat Buchanan paleo Catholic wing never liked Bush so some of this does not come as a suprise to me.

By: M.Z.

M.Z. — Fri, 17 Apr 2009 18:55:54 +0000

It is no accident that the most strident and early critics of the Bush administration hailed from traditionalist Catholic and Orthodox circles that make Linker’s bete noire of First Things look like the relatively liberal, ecumenist forum that it is.

Worth just seeing a second time.

By: Zach

Zach — Fri, 17 Apr 2009 18:52:13 +0000

It seems like Larison is making a guilt by association argument. It’s also awfully vague. But maybe I’m misreading him, I don’t know.

Say for the sake of argument that all your complaints about America are true. What would you have us do?

Do we move to a different country? Do we stage a revolution? Do we want a Catholic state? Do we abstain from voting in America?

Again: what is it that you would have us do? Useful political commentary involves not just theorizing and criticism, but also something positive. Is there a path forward, or are we simply doomed?

By: S.B.

S.B. — Fri, 17 Apr 2009 18:38:05 +0000

Gnostic or Calvinist or Jensenist or Leninist? You can’t keep adding adjectives forever here.

By: Paul in the GNW

Paul in the GNW — Fri, 17 Apr 2009 18:37:19 +0000

Wow MM, in almost 2 years reading here, I think this is the first item you have posted that I absolutely agree with.

Thanks