But Americans Are Different….
March 31, 2009
When Americans do it:
“a form of simulated drowning that U.S. officials had previously deemed a crime” or “harsh interrogation tactics” or an “interrogation tactic” or “harsh interrogation practices” or “a practice that years later would be condemned as torture by Democrats and some Republicans on Capitol Hill.”
When foreigners do it (in this case the Khmer Rouge):
“torture..”
This is how the Washington Post sees the world. I think it is also how many Americans see the world.
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19 Comments
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I’ll say this up front – It’s a trap, and I’m walking right into it.
However you spin it, call it consequentialism, Calvinism, whatever.
The United States is different than the Khmer Rouge. The United States is different than Che Guevara. The United States is different than Al Qaeda. The United States is different than any other such group you try to draw equivalency with.
I am different from my brother too.
TT: The question is whether the US’s actions are different? If the Khmer Rouge and the US Gov both waterboard prisoners then it sounds to me like they are not that different from each other.
Good Tim! Because Jesus only meant for bad people to love their enemies and repay evil with good. Too bad for him, poor bastard, that he did not have the luxury to know and love America and freedom.
“Tuetonic Tim” should move over here to Germany and join the resurgent Nazi/skinheads; they are “different” in exactly the way he prefers the United States to be “different,” and they, unlike the Americans, have an ideology that actually SUPPORTS, rather than contradict, their “difference.”
“The question is whether the US’s actions are different?”
This puts people of good faith in an awkward position. We don’t want to justify torture, or the Bush administration’s actions (whether or not they amount to torture). But they are NOT the same, except perhaps in some small ways.
Let’s look at the report in the Washington Post:
“The prosecution described a chain of death operated by Duch. His victims — most of whom were either disgraced members of the Khmer Rouge or their families — were tortured with electric shocks, waterboarding or beating to extract a confession, which would implicate new victims. After confessing, the victims would be killed, most often by a sharp blow to the back of the head.
“‘There were autopsies carried out on live persons, there was medical experimentation, and people were bled to death: These were all crimes against humanity admitted by Duch,’ the prosecutors charged in the indictment. Among the four forms of torture he officially condoned, they said, was pouring water up victims’ noses.”
Does that sound to you like what America did? It doesn’t to me.
To my knowledge, we “water boarded” THREE people. And it may not even be fair to call it water boarding is the same. Historically, water boarding meant slowly but actually drowning people. That’s not at all what the CIA did. What did the CIA do?
“6. Water Boarding. The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner’s face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt.”
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=1322866
I could be wrong, but it is my understanding that the procedure, as conducted by the CIA, was “simulated drowning,” involving no risk of death or serious bodily harm. They even tried it on themselves! But even knowing that you would not, in fact, drown, you could not help but yield almost immediately because of survival instincts.
Acceptable behavior? No. Torture? Perhaps. But the same thing as “pouring water up victims’ noses”? No. Is the list of hard interrogation tactics in the ABC News report I cited different from the list cited by the Washington Post? Most definitely. And is there a difference between doing something thrice and doing something as a matter of course? Absolutely.
Again, I do NOT condone torture, or even things approaching torture, even if only rare. But just because conduct is reprehensible does not mean that it is equivalent to all other conduct that is reprehensible. And it certainly doesn’t mean that all people who engage in reprehensible conduct are essentially equal.
Let’s criticize misconduct, but let’s do so honestly.
In some ways it is really not a huge surprise that a society that sees plenty of use for capital punishment has a hard time dealing with really vicious murderous terrorist.
But for me in the end Americans are also different because they are able to correct themself. Yes plenty of Americans supported these tortureous interrogation policies – yes some still make excuses – which is human nature really to avoid the unpleasant truth- but you know what Morning Minion, Americans took care of this issue at the ballot box.
American forces do kill more scrupulously. They still want to be liked when they bomb your country. After the dust has settled, it’s candy for everyone who survived. Plus, God’s on their side, and that makes all the difference as we know.
On the bright side, I’m going to Bruce Springsteen tonight :o) One of this country’s redeeming qualities in addition to baseball and Apple.
You can’t stop bad people by being nice to them.
Tim:
Maybe you’re not supposed to “stop bad people” in as much as the “stopping” has to do with power.
Do not resist an evil person…
Vengeance is mine….
I’m sorry, this site is dedicate to Catholic perspectives on the world.
Catholics follow this one guy. You wouldn’t understand…
j. – I’m pretty sure Tim has no idea who Jesus is.
Michael – Why don’t you edit yourself out for bringing in personal attacks. If I said such a thing I’d be auto-edited to no end. You are so annoying, I won’t even say how much I’d like to slap you.
Oh – I’m pretty sure that Jesus wasn’t a granola munching, dope smoking, hippy shell of a real man. Don’t put your own views into what Jesus said. I read the same Bible, and the same Church teaching.
Do not resist an evil person…
That’s up to you. I will always resist an evil person, and evil when I see it. I will even do so on your behalf, and on any pussifist’s (even Michael J)behalf even though I may not want to.
It’s no accident we don’t understand each other. You people would rather let the world descend into chaos because you are too scared to face up to the mean and bad people that you have no heart to stand up against. It’s people like you that allow people like them to run rampant and unchecked.
Americans took care of this issue at the ballot box.
They sure did. There has been no substantive change in policy, with the exception of federal funding of embryonic stem cell research, funding of abortions using tax money, and repealing conscience clauses in medical areas.
Sounds like americans made a great decision!
Michael – Why don’t you edit yourself out for bringing in personal attacks. If I said such a thing I’d be auto-edited to no end.
Well, using your own logic in your initial comment, there is a difference between what I do and what you do. Get over it.
You are so annoying, I won’t even say how much I’d like to slap you.
To use the words of your hero, “bring it on.”
Don’t put your own views into what Jesus said. I read the same Bible, and the same Church teaching.
Uh huh. And yet you say this:
You can’t stop bad people by being nice to them.
And I’m the one “reading into” what Jesus said? Give me a break. Go look up some war porn.
Jesus Christ is currently being sued for having changed George W. Bush’s heart. Mr. Christ claims that this was an impostor’s work, as he has never been to Texas nor intends to visit. “One execution was enough, thank you very much”, he commented.
I like granola smokers and dope munchers. Far less likely to create ‘evil persons’ to fight.
“It’s people like you that allow people like them to run rampant and unchecked.”
Is this a reference to investment bankers, stock- and mortgage brokers ?
“you are too scared to face up to the mean and bad people that you have no heart to stand up against.”
Well, I did have my “No on Prop. 8″ signs in the car outside of San Francisco, too. Yelling at Mormons should count for something as well.
Tim:
You sound like a terrfied child, lashing out at whatever and whoever because you cannot stand to except that there is evil and none of us know why.
I have worked with hurt and violent people (drug dealers, gang members, junkies) and I would sooner live with their “chaos” than the chaos of torture chambers, smart bombs and their jingoistic defenders.
In short, you do not speak like someone who is interested in the “good news for the poor” that Jesus spoke of. You dont seem to be interested in spiritual healing of taking care of the ‘least of these’ from Matthew 25.
That’s ok. But be honest about it. Your comments about slapping people and “pussifists” do not match up with the life and teachings of Jesus Christ.
For the record, I have never done drugs. I have tried granola but I did not swallow.
I think even Jesus would like to give Michael J. a good slap. You can’t fault me for that based on how annoying he is.
I never said I want torture chambers. Smart bombs are there for a reason – to combat those that torture innocents, and inflict death on their own people with as little damage as possible.
I don’t seem to recall Jesus saying we have to embrace, allow, and aid evil. There is a difference between praying for and trying to help someone to save themselves and allowing and helping them to continue their terror.
Even “the least of these” is open to interpretation.
To me the least of these are the unjustly punished, the exploited, the wrongly accused, the persecuted, etc.
Those that do the infliction on the least of these, I will pray for, but I will not and cannot abide. I’ll leave that up to Michael J.