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	<title>Comments on: Vox Nova At the Movies: Watchmen</title>
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	<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/03/07/vox-nova-at-the-movies-watchmen/</link>
	<description>Catholic perspectives on culture, society, and politics</description>
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		<title>By: Henry Karlson</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/03/07/vox-nova-at-the-movies-watchmen/#comment-50577</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Henry Karlson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Mar 2009 15:32:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=6334#comment-50577</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That scene wasn&#039;t in the movie; it would have helped if it had been.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That scene wasn&#8217;t in the movie; it would have helped if it had been.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael J. Iafrate</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/03/07/vox-nova-at-the-movies-watchmen/#comment-50576</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael J. Iafrate]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Mar 2009 15:26:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=6334#comment-50576</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I see. Well, I look forward to seeing the film and making comparisons. 

I did see a short scene in the graphic novel -- not sure if it made it into the movie -- involving the psychiatrist/analyst who was interviewing Rorschach in an earlier scene... The analyst&#039;s wife ends up leaving him because he is putting himself too much into his job, starting to care too much about about his patients. She confronts him later saying that she will come back to him if he transfers to a different type of patient, because she &quot;can&#039;t live with someone who feels driven to help hopeless cases.&quot; She insists that she&#039;s &quot;not going to share [her] life with them.&quot; As they&#039;re talking, he notices another couple on the street beating each other up and he moves to help them. His wife says &quot;don&#039;t you dare get involved,&quot; testing him. He replies, &quot;I &lt;I&gt;have&lt;/I&gt; to. In a world like this, I mean, it&#039;s all we can do, try to help each other. It&#039;s all that means anything. I&#039;m sorry. It&#039;s the world. I can&#039;t run from it.&quot;

I thought that scene, in the graphic novel at least, was part of the &quot;reconstruction&quot; of heroism and of humanity.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see. Well, I look forward to seeing the film and making comparisons. </p>
<p>I did see a short scene in the graphic novel &#8212; not sure if it made it into the movie &#8212; involving the psychiatrist/analyst who was interviewing Rorschach in an earlier scene&#8230; The analyst&#8217;s wife ends up leaving him because he is putting himself too much into his job, starting to care too much about about his patients. She confronts him later saying that she will come back to him if he transfers to a different type of patient, because she &#8220;can&#8217;t live with someone who feels driven to help hopeless cases.&#8221; She insists that she&#8217;s &#8220;not going to share [her] life with them.&#8221; As they&#8217;re talking, he notices another couple on the street beating each other up and he moves to help them. His wife says &#8220;don&#8217;t you dare get involved,&#8221; testing him. He replies, &#8220;I <i>have</i> to. In a world like this, I mean, it&#8217;s all we can do, try to help each other. It&#8217;s all that means anything. I&#8217;m sorry. It&#8217;s the world. I can&#8217;t run from it.&#8221;</p>
<p>I thought that scene, in the graphic novel at least, was part of the &#8220;reconstruction&#8221; of heroism and of humanity.</p>
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		<title>By: Henry Karlson</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/03/07/vox-nova-at-the-movies-watchmen/#comment-50553</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Henry Karlson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Mar 2009 07:48:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=6334#comment-50553</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Michael

I agree that is one of the themes, but as it is done in the movie, I feel the value is lost, because the deconstruction is done without reconstruction (so to speak). The deconstruction of the hero was done far better by Frank Herbert (and was done keeping the humanity intact). What got to me was not the rejection of heroes as such, or the soteriological claims of government (as most know, both are issues I would agree with), but the imbalance in which I see it done in the film, which included no real redeeming feature in humanity itself. The ideology of the Comedian becomes the ideology of the film, making the deconstruction half-done, for if you are going to show why heroes are not soteriological, your ultimate position should not be that of one of those heroes you are using to show this. Again, my criticism is with the movie on this part (having not read the graphic novel, and knowing Moore himself was critical of the movie).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael</p>
<p>I agree that is one of the themes, but as it is done in the movie, I feel the value is lost, because the deconstruction is done without reconstruction (so to speak). The deconstruction of the hero was done far better by Frank Herbert (and was done keeping the humanity intact). What got to me was not the rejection of heroes as such, or the soteriological claims of government (as most know, both are issues I would agree with), but the imbalance in which I see it done in the film, which included no real redeeming feature in humanity itself. The ideology of the Comedian becomes the ideology of the film, making the deconstruction half-done, for if you are going to show why heroes are not soteriological, your ultimate position should not be that of one of those heroes you are using to show this. Again, my criticism is with the movie on this part (having not read the graphic novel, and knowing Moore himself was critical of the movie).</p>
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		<title>By: Michael J. Iafrate</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/03/07/vox-nova-at-the-movies-watchmen/#comment-50552</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael J. Iafrate]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Mar 2009 05:43:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=6334#comment-50552</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I finished the graphic novel tonight. I wasn&#039;t all that excited about the film, but after reading the graphic novel, I&#039;ll definitely see it. My reading of the story is like Kyle&#039;s - it&#039;s a statement about the soteriological claims of governments (and hero figures of all kinds) and the false peace that comes from the practice of redemptive violence and scapegoating.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I finished the graphic novel tonight. I wasn&#8217;t all that excited about the film, but after reading the graphic novel, I&#8217;ll definitely see it. My reading of the story is like Kyle&#8217;s &#8211; it&#8217;s a statement about the soteriological claims of governments (and hero figures of all kinds) and the false peace that comes from the practice of redemptive violence and scapegoating.</p>
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		<title>By: Kyle Cupp</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/03/07/vox-nova-at-the-movies-watchmen/#comment-50366</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kyle Cupp]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Mar 2009 17:37:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=6334#comment-50366</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I didn&#039;t see the character Dr. Manhattan as a statement about God per se, but a depiction of what becoming godlike might have on a human person.  He loses touch with humanity, his own and those he loved.  He might serve as an example of what man&#039;s attempt to be like God might look like, but I didn&#039;t see him as making some statement about, say, the God of Abraham.  

While I agree that the vision of &lt;em&gt;Watchmen&lt;/em&gt; is almost entirely devoid of light and goodness - unrelentingly bleak in the words of John Henry - I didn&#039;t get the sense that this vision is being proposed as an accurate statement about reality.  My small encounters with people in the movie theater show me otherwise.  Rather, I think the story is purposefully inaccurate.  It doesn&#039;t present the light, but not presenting something isn&#039;t the same as rejecting or denying something.  The ways of the Watchmen may not work, but that doesn&#039;t mean there are not alternatives worth trying.  The story seems meant to subvert the superhero mythology, not everything.  More precisely, what is reveals as absurd is Adrien&#039;s statement, &quot;We can save this world.&quot;  

I recently finished a book called &lt;em&gt;An End to Evil&lt;/em&gt; by David Frum and Richard Perle.  They conclude the book with the following:  &quot;A world at peace; a world governed by law; a world in which all peoples are free to find their own destinies: That dream has not yet come true, it will not come true soon, but if it ever does come true, it will be brought into being by American armed might and defended by American might, too. America’s vocation is not an imperial vocation. Our vocation is to support justice with power. It is a vocation that has earned us terrible enemies. It is a vocation that has made us, at our best moments, the hope of the world.&quot;

That&#039;s the kind of nonsense that &lt;em&gt;Watchmen&lt;/em&gt; characterizes as absurd.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t see the character Dr. Manhattan as a statement about God per se, but a depiction of what becoming godlike might have on a human person.  He loses touch with humanity, his own and those he loved.  He might serve as an example of what man&#8217;s attempt to be like God might look like, but I didn&#8217;t see him as making some statement about, say, the God of Abraham.  </p>
<p>While I agree that the vision of <em>Watchmen</em> is almost entirely devoid of light and goodness &#8211; unrelentingly bleak in the words of John Henry &#8211; I didn&#8217;t get the sense that this vision is being proposed as an accurate statement about reality.  My small encounters with people in the movie theater show me otherwise.  Rather, I think the story is purposefully inaccurate.  It doesn&#8217;t present the light, but not presenting something isn&#8217;t the same as rejecting or denying something.  The ways of the Watchmen may not work, but that doesn&#8217;t mean there are not alternatives worth trying.  The story seems meant to subvert the superhero mythology, not everything.  More precisely, what is reveals as absurd is Adrien&#8217;s statement, &#8220;We can save this world.&#8221;  </p>
<p>I recently finished a book called <em>An End to Evil</em> by David Frum and Richard Perle.  They conclude the book with the following:  &#8220;A world at peace; a world governed by law; a world in which all peoples are free to find their own destinies: That dream has not yet come true, it will not come true soon, but if it ever does come true, it will be brought into being by American armed might and defended by American might, too. America’s vocation is not an imperial vocation. Our vocation is to support justice with power. It is a vocation that has earned us terrible enemies. It is a vocation that has made us, at our best moments, the hope of the world.&#8221;</p>
<p>That&#8217;s the kind of nonsense that <em>Watchmen</em> characterizes as absurd.</p>
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		<title>By: Henry Karlson</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/03/07/vox-nova-at-the-movies-watchmen/#comment-50349</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Henry Karlson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Mar 2009 12:52:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=6334#comment-50349</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Kyle

The issue in the movie is far more than that one incident (as I pointed out in my review, it is deconstructing the modern Western idea, such as in the use of Nagasaki); however, it doesn&#039;t really raise what the real solution is. Instead, it points to the absurdity of even trying; that there is nothing to save -- life is a joke. The image of God in humanity, the good within humanity, is rejected. And that makes it a dangerous story. I can accept the deconstruction of the war imperative (as you would guess), but, I also think exaggeration without showing the good only leads to nihilism. Which is, to me, something seen throughout the film. Manhattan was used to deconstruct religion, and God, making God best used as a monster to control humanity, since God would be so different from us, he couldn&#039;t love us...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kyle</p>
<p>The issue in the movie is far more than that one incident (as I pointed out in my review, it is deconstructing the modern Western idea, such as in the use of Nagasaki); however, it doesn&#8217;t really raise what the real solution is. Instead, it points to the absurdity of even trying; that there is nothing to save &#8212; life is a joke. The image of God in humanity, the good within humanity, is rejected. And that makes it a dangerous story. I can accept the deconstruction of the war imperative (as you would guess), but, I also think exaggeration without showing the good only leads to nihilism. Which is, to me, something seen throughout the film. Manhattan was used to deconstruct religion, and God, making God best used as a monster to control humanity, since God would be so different from us, he couldn&#8217;t love us&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: John Henry</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/03/07/vox-nova-at-the-movies-watchmen/#comment-50348</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Henry]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Mar 2009 12:49:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=6334#comment-50348</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;There were so many areas where, if the story was not so superficial, it could have ended up being good. I won’t judge the graphic novel based upon the movie&lt;/i&gt;

I agree. There were some interesting themes, and I wouldn&#039;t necessarily write off the book. But I would recommend against seeing the movie (unless you&#039;ve read the book and really liked it). 

Ideally, movies are nuanced and enjoyable even when they are morally problematic. Watchmen was neither subtle, nor particularly enjoyable; and, as you said, the traces of truth/beauty/goodness were few and far between. The vision of humanity was unrelentingly bleak, which I think undermined the dramatic force of the narrative. Is humanity, as portrayed in the movie, even worth saving? I saw it with four friends; we all disliked it and one, a priest, walked out midway through. In fairness, none of us had read the book. But it wasn&#039;t a great movie.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>There were so many areas where, if the story was not so superficial, it could have ended up being good. I won’t judge the graphic novel based upon the movie</i></p>
<p>I agree. There were some interesting themes, and I wouldn&#8217;t necessarily write off the book. But I would recommend against seeing the movie (unless you&#8217;ve read the book and really liked it). </p>
<p>Ideally, movies are nuanced and enjoyable even when they are morally problematic. Watchmen was neither subtle, nor particularly enjoyable; and, as you said, the traces of truth/beauty/goodness were few and far between. The vision of humanity was unrelentingly bleak, which I think undermined the dramatic force of the narrative. Is humanity, as portrayed in the movie, even worth saving? I saw it with four friends; we all disliked it and one, a priest, walked out midway through. In fairness, none of us had read the book. But it wasn&#8217;t a great movie.</p>
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		<title>By: Kyle Cupp</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/03/07/vox-nova-at-the-movies-watchmen/#comment-50347</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kyle Cupp]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Mar 2009 12:32:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=6334#comment-50347</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I thought the film proved a faithful but somewhat less dramatic adaptation.  The story depicts the absurdity of trying to save the world by means of killing.  The question of whether there is a better hope for mankind&#039;s salvation resides outside the vision of the Watchmen, who seem blind to common experiences such as loving self-sacrifice.  Even Dr. Manhattan, who rejects the idea that he is like God, doesn&#039;t save the world through use of his superhuman powers: his &quot;saving&quot; act is murdering a fellow watchman.   

The theme of &lt;em&gt;Watchmen&lt;/em&gt; isn&#039;t the absurdity of salvation itself, but the absurdity of trying to &quot;save&quot; human nature - or at least establish lasting peace - by killing human beings.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thought the film proved a faithful but somewhat less dramatic adaptation.  The story depicts the absurdity of trying to save the world by means of killing.  The question of whether there is a better hope for mankind&#8217;s salvation resides outside the vision of the Watchmen, who seem blind to common experiences such as loving self-sacrifice.  Even Dr. Manhattan, who rejects the idea that he is like God, doesn&#8217;t save the world through use of his superhuman powers: his &#8220;saving&#8221; act is murdering a fellow watchman.   </p>
<p>The theme of <em>Watchmen</em> isn&#8217;t the absurdity of salvation itself, but the absurdity of trying to &#8220;save&#8221; human nature &#8211; or at least establish lasting peace &#8211; by killing human beings.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael J. Iafrate</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/03/07/vox-nova-at-the-movies-watchmen/#comment-50333</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael J. Iafrate]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Mar 2009 04:31:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=6334#comment-50333</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Reading the graphic novel now....]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reading the graphic novel now&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Henry Karlson</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/03/07/vox-nova-at-the-movies-watchmen/#comment-50320</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Henry Karlson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Mar 2009 23:32:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=6334#comment-50320</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[John Henry

I had never read the graphic novel, but I knew the general plot outline (from discussions before the movie came out). As one who appreciates post-modernism and deconstruction, if done well, I thought there was potential with the film. There were so many areas where, if the story was not so superficial, it could have ended up being good. I won&#039;t judge the graphic novel based upon the movie (every film based upon his work, like this, he has rejected putting his name to it, like V for Vendetta), although I think I would find the same problems in his story as well (it&#039;s clear he has an issue with sexuality). Still, there is something within this, a diamond in the rough, which could have been good, which is what makes it difficult to entirely dismiss the story, even if, as a whole, it is, as we both see it, something which is quite difficult to write a balanced review.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John Henry</p>
<p>I had never read the graphic novel, but I knew the general plot outline (from discussions before the movie came out). As one who appreciates post-modernism and deconstruction, if done well, I thought there was potential with the film. There were so many areas where, if the story was not so superficial, it could have ended up being good. I won&#8217;t judge the graphic novel based upon the movie (every film based upon his work, like this, he has rejected putting his name to it, like V for Vendetta), although I think I would find the same problems in his story as well (it&#8217;s clear he has an issue with sexuality). Still, there is something within this, a diamond in the rough, which could have been good, which is what makes it difficult to entirely dismiss the story, even if, as a whole, it is, as we both see it, something which is quite difficult to write a balanced review.</p>
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		<title>By: John Henry</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/03/07/vox-nova-at-the-movies-watchmen/#comment-50310</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Henry]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Mar 2009 20:47:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=6334#comment-50310</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Fwiw, I saw Watchmen this weekend and &lt;i&gt;loathed&lt;/i&gt; it. As Henry says, the morality is terrible and the storytelling is painfully slow. The first 1.5 hours (which, by the way, is only &lt;i&gt;half&lt;/i&gt; of the movie) is basically exposition. There are some interesting moral questions raised by the movie, but the treatment of these issues is superficial and ambiguous. I don&#039;t consider myself particularly prudish, but there was far too much sex for my taste. I was going to do a review as a post, but I didn&#039;t like enough of it to write a balanced take.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fwiw, I saw Watchmen this weekend and <i>loathed</i> it. As Henry says, the morality is terrible and the storytelling is painfully slow. The first 1.5 hours (which, by the way, is only <i>half</i> of the movie) is basically exposition. There are some interesting moral questions raised by the movie, but the treatment of these issues is superficial and ambiguous. I don&#8217;t consider myself particularly prudish, but there was far too much sex for my taste. I was going to do a review as a post, but I didn&#8217;t like enough of it to write a balanced take.</p>
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		<title>By: Henry Karlson</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2009/03/07/vox-nova-at-the-movies-watchmen/#comment-50282</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Henry Karlson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Mar 2009 20:50:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/?p=6334#comment-50282</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ok, no, I&#039;ve not seen it (I know of it); but I thought you meant one of the other films with the name you originally gave. Some movies I wait for when I catch them on tv (and this one is one I&#039;ve not caught). Some genres I tend to see more at the theatre (and Watchmen is one such genre; of course, not all such films, but it had enough of a resume to go see it when I did).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok, no, I&#8217;ve not seen it (I know of it); but I thought you meant one of the other films with the name you originally gave. Some movies I wait for when I catch them on tv (and this one is one I&#8217;ve not caught). Some genres I tend to see more at the theatre (and Watchmen is one such genre; of course, not all such films, but it had enough of a resume to go see it when I did).</p>
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