SSPX Forbids Bishop Williamson From Discussing the Holocaust
The following is a statement issued by Bishop Bernard Fellay, the superior general of SSPX:
We have come to know of an interview given by Bishop Richard Williamson, a member of our Fraternity of St. Pius X, on Swedish television. In this interview he spoke of historical questions, in particular on the question of the genocide of the Jews by the Nazis.
It is evident that a Catholic bishop cannot speak with ecclesial authority if it is not a question of faith and morals. Our fraternity does not claim any authority over other questions. Its mission is the propagation and restoration of authentic Catholic doctrine, as found in the dogmas of the faith. It is for this that we are known, accepted and appreciated throughout the world.
With great sadness we acknowledge the extent to which the violation of this mandate has damaged our mission. The statements of Bishop Williamson do not reflect in any way the position of our society. For this, I have prohibited him, until further notice, from speaking publicly on these political and historical questions
We ask for the forgiveness of the Supreme Pontiff, and of all people of good will, for the dramatic consequences of this act. As we recognize how imprudent the statements were, we affirm with sadness that they have directly affected our fraternity by discrediting our mission.
This is not acceptable, and we declare that we will continue preaching Catholic doctrine and administering the sacraments of grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.
I would note that this statement, and the resulting censure of Bishop Williamson, would most likely not have occurred absent the Vatican’s decision to lift the excommunications placed on the four SSPX bishops. I also suspect that, unlike the threats of violence, imprisonment, etc., that have been leveled against Bishop Williamson by folks on this blog and elsewhere, Bishop Fellay’s orders really will deter Williamson from speaking on the subject again.
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Here is also a note from the SSPX District Superior in Germany:
As District Superior of the Society [of Saint Pius X] in Germany, I am very troubled by the words pronounced by Bishop Williamson here in this country.
The banalization of the genocide of the Jews by the Nazi regime and of its horror are unacceptable for us.
The persecution and murder of an incalculable number of Jews under the Third Reich touches us painfully and they also violate the Christian commandment of love for neighbor which does not distinguish ethnicities.
I must apologize for this behavior and dissociate myself from such a view.
Such dissociation is also necessary for us because the father of Archbishop Lefebvre died in a KZ [concentration camp] and because numerous Catholic priests lost their lives in Hitler’s concentration camps.
Stuttgart, January 27, 2009
Father Franz Schmidberger
Father Schmidberger was the Superior-General of the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Pius X at the time of the consecrations of 1988.
Isn’t it a little late? Bishop Williamson has been saying these things for years.
Also, Williamson did not exactly come out of a vacuum. Anti-semitism has been part of the Lefebvist schism from the beginning.
Isn’t it a little late? Bishop Williamson has been saying these things for years.
The excommunications were only lifted last Wednesday.
Bishop Fellay’s orders really will deter Williamson from speaking on the subject again.
That’s nice. There will still be an anti-semitic Catholic bishop whose views will be protected because of the supposed isolation of “faith and morals” from his political views. This is a problem.
Jews are parhaps much more aware than Catholics of the prescence in the ordinary magisterium of the past…. of anti semitical elements such as the canons 67 and after of Lateran IV (EWTN site: http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/LATERAN4.HTM#67). Each time the Church overstates the force of the ordinary magisterium, She inadvertently keeps alive suspicions in this area. Conservatives have trouble letting go of the OM sometimes even when it is wrong…..liberals have trouble letting go of the present OM when it accords with their predilictions.
Does it take the lifting of an excommunication to address deplorable views by one’s bishop?
There will still be an anti-semitic Catholic bishop whose views will be protected because of the supposed isolation of “faith and morals” from his political views. This is a problem.
That was going to be true in any case. The people who favored putting Williamson in jail or threatening him with violence didn’t think that doing so would change his mind, just that it would shut him up.
ps….Lateran III canon 26….bears on Israeli trust of the Vatican if in fact the Vatican never denounces such canons explicitly…it then leaves doubts:
“26. Jews and Saracens are not to be allowed to have christian servants in their houses, either under pretence of nourishing their children or for service or any other reason. Let those be excommunicated who presume to live with them. We declare that the evidence of Christians is to be accepted against Jews in every case, since Jews employ their own witnesses against Christians, and that those who prefer Jews to Christians in this matter are to lie under anathema, since Jews ought to be subject to Christians and to be supported by them on grounds of humanity alone. If any by the inspiration of God are converted to the christian faith, they are in no way to be excluded from their possessions, since the condition of converts ought to be better than before their conversion. If this is not done, we enjoin on the princes and rulers of these places, under penalty of excommunication, the duty to restore fully to these converts the share of their inheritance and goods.”
That Williamson is a loathesome crank is a point on which many can doubtless agree, but I think many here are too locked into their political tribalism to be remotely consistent here.
Exactly the same commenters who were suggesting that Williamson be jailed or physically attacked for his (certainly reprehensible) views about the Holocaust are the ones who routinely state that the Israelis are the new Nazis and complain that people in the US erroniously feel sympathy towards the existence of Israel because of the Holocaust. One can’t help wondering if an Arabic speaking Christian bishop residing in Gaza would be hailed as a hero even if he espoused Williamson’s views.
The sad fact is that we’ve had lots of reprehensible bishops in the history of the Church, and while I wish that Williamson would go off and retire to a monastery somewhere, is a validly (though illicitly) consecrated bishop. If Benedict thinks that he can bring a significant portion of the million SSPX followers back into the Church (and if this even brings along the added bonus of Williamson being told to STFU) I for one am not complaining.
If Benedict desires communion with the SSPX folk, fine. But Antisemitic bishops should remain excommunicated. Not jailed or physically attacked. What Fellay does not understand is that antisemitic beliefs DO pertain to “faith and morals.”
But Antisemitic bishops should remain excommunicated.
As I have pointed out before, favoring abortion rights is worse than mere antisemitism or Holocaust denial, as despicable as they are. If there were currently a “right to murder Jews” and a present ongoing Holocaust of millions of Jews each year under that ‘right’, then active support of that ‘right’ would be analogous to favoring abortion rights.
So if Williamson deserves to be excommunicated on the basis of his Holocaust denial, for his own good and the good of the Church – and I am sympathetic to that view – then there are a whole lot of other Catholics who deserve excommunication for their own good and the good of the Church, all of whom are in line for excommunication before Williamson.
This whole thing has been terribly mismanaged. Why didn’t it occur to Benedict et. al. to get these kind of statements out before revoking the excommunication?
Morning’s Minion,
Are you accusing the SSPX of being anti-semitic simply because they desire Jews to become Catholics?
This is all a show, he’s been saying this for years and years, I reported on that freak on my defunct blog years ago. Mind you, this Schmidberger character is a true nut as well, as is Fellay, they just look sane by comparison. The crap they worry about has as much – or less – to do with Jesus as the proper preparation of Muesli. Granted, Muesli is healthy. Their air of conspiracy theories would be too much for that idiotic history channel.
Since I deleted the blog, the many posts i had on them are gone, too. Usually it ended with me being called – at best – a Jew lover. Any regular Catholic – say, Michael, Nate – would sense the nutter factor immediately.
Here’s a SPLC report from last year http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=719
From that report, section about SSPX http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?sid=397
In essence, these “rad trads” remind me a lot of the priests who scared even St. Therese of Lisieux with “hellfire”. I read a very interesting piece on an SSPX seminary in Germany once. Scary stuff, makes Camp Lejeune seem like Club Med.
Granted, many young priests in general have this, uh, intense air about them. After a lucidum intervallum, it seems like the Catholic church has returned to its more traditional “Get off my lawn!” approach to the world, replete with l’art pour l’art piety and overly theatrical celebrants.
Bishop Fellay’s orders really will deter Williamson from speaking on the subject again.
Since schism with Rome is Williamson’s raison d’etre and since Holocaust-denial helps to prevent full final reconciliation with Rome, I seriously doubt that Williamson will follow his superior’s directive. As a matter of fact, I’d be willing to bet money that he won’t.
Zippy – Right and wrong. The differences and similarities between antisemitism and favoring abortion rights is more complex than you make it out to be. Antisemitism is inspired by nothing but hatred. Favoring abortion rights, while wrong, is not typically inspired by hatred of preborn human beings. So while your “right to murder Jews” analogy is interesting, it’s not the complete picture. The many layers of the abortion issue (having an abortion, being an abortionist, politically agitating for the pro-choice agenda, being “personally opposed,” etc.) make abortion a much more complicated matter. Antisemitism, on the other hand, is quite simple.
This should not be taken in any way as me thinking that favoring abortion rights is an acceptable position for Catholics. It’s not.
“Also, Williamson did not exactly come out of a vacuum. Anti-semitism has been part of the Lefebvist schism from the beginning.”
Anti- semitism has been a part of the Roman Catholic Church for a long time and we shouldn’t pretend as if it is now only contained to the Lefebvist movement. But if the heirachy does its “job” and teaches the faithful of the evils of anti-semitism, it seems that having the group in communion with the Church will be better than having them outside of the Church.
So if Williamson deserves to be excommunicated on the basis of his Holocaust denial, for his own good and the good of the Church
Zippy,
It does not seem to me to be an issue of whether denying the Holocaust is an excommunicable offense. The point is that Williamson and the others were already excommunicated. According to a CNS story:”
It seems to me in performing an act of mercy, the pope need not take into account solely the actions for which the original excommunication took place. If Benedict XVI had concluded that the excommunications were somehow invalid, then it would be understandable that he lifted all of them in spite of Williamson’s behavior. However, since they were an act of mercy he was under no obligation to lift the excommunication from all of them.
I presume that Benedict calculated that to lift the excommunication for all except Williamson would offend SSPX, but the question is why? If the rest of SSPX finds what Williamson says as offensive as any decent person should, then they should not have been offended if Williamson had been treated differently from the others. So it seems to me that in performing this act of mercy, the pope certainly did not endorse Williamson’s crackpot ideas, but he was willing in some sense to tolerate them so as not to offend SSPX. It seems to me it is impossible to look at Williamson as two entirely different individuals, and say the pope granted mercy to the excommunicated bishop but not the Holocaust-denying, 9/11-conspiracy theorist. If Williamson were an unrepentant convicted murderer in prison or a terrorist at large, I doubt that the pope would have lifted his excommunication, even though those would not be excommunicable offenses. So in at least some limited sense, in granting this act of kindness to Williamson, the pope was tolerating Williamson’s offensive statements.
Greg:
I am not referrring to Lefebvist missionary activity among Jews, I am referring to their more explicit statements on this mattter. See the good article by John Allen: http://ncronline3.org/drupal/?q=node/3180.
* Lefebve himself supported the Vichy occupation and the French National Front.
* As late as 1985, Lefebve was still railing against ““Jews, Communists and Freemasons.”
* Lefebve blamed the “Jews” for fomenting the opposition to the Carmelite convent in Auschwitz.
* Lefebvist bishop de Mallerais (the one who calls Pope Benedict a heretic) claimed that the Church forbids killing Jews even when “their grave defects rendered them odious to the nations among which they were established….All this makes us think that the Jews are the most active artisans for the coming of Antichrist.”
* Nazi fugitive Paul Touvier, accused of killing 7 Jews, was given asylum in a Lefebvist priory and hidden.
* Last year, a Lefebvist priest said Jews were responsible for Christ’s death.
* Also last year, an Italian Lefebvist priest celebrated Mass in honor of Benito Mussolini.
And then comes Williamson. Not exactly in a vacuum.
Antisemitism is inspired by nothing but hatred. Favoring abortion rights, while wrong, is not typically inspired by hatred of preborn human beings.
Do you think that an anti-semite considers their view to be irrational? I generally find that everyone thinks what they think and believe what they believe for a reason. That reason is rarely ‘I want to be bad’.
Right and wrong. The differences and similarities between antisemitism and favoring abortion rights is more complex than you make it out to be. Antisemitism is inspired by nothing but hatred. Favoring abortion rights, while wrong, is not typically inspired by hatred of preborn human beings.
Yes, everyone always thinks he is the good guy and Thos Others Over There [tm] are Haters [tm].
But objectively, generic anti-semitism manifests hatred of Jews; and objectively, favoring abortion rights manifests not just hatred of the unborn but more specific murderous intentions, etc. Catholics shouldn’t be in the business of justifying or defending either; but the latter is clearly more grave, vicious, despicable, and inexcusable.
Morning’s Minion,
This is circumstantial evidence at best. For example, “last year an SSPX priest said Jews were co-responsible for the death of Christ.” What does this have to do with anti-Semitism? You could say the same thing about Catholics.
* Also last year, an Italian Lefebvist priest celebrated Mass in honor of Benito Mussolini. Again, what does this have anything to do with anti-semitism?
I can’t imagine Archbishop Lefebvre’s view of the Jews was really much different than Hilaire Belloc or GK Chesterton’s views. Are you going to accuse them of anti-semitism as well?
Greg:
I expect them to ascribe to Nostra Aetate, which says: “True, the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ; still, what happened in His passion cannot be charged against all the Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today.”
The isue is of course the 21st ecumenical council. They must either accept it in its entirety or bugger off.
I can’t imagine Archbishop Lefebvre’s view of the Jews was really much different than Hilaire Belloc or GK Chesterton’s views. Are you going to accuse them of anti-semitism as well?
Lefebvre was not contemporary with Chesterton or Belloc. There are passages in the 1912 Catholic Encyclopedia online that are certainly not acceptable today and verge on anti-Semitism, such as calling Jews the enemies of Christ.
From the Catholic Encyclopedia
On Jews
Church legislation against Jewish holding of Christian slaves can be easily understood: as members of Christ, the children of the Church should evidently not be subjected to the power of His enemies, and thereby incur a special danger for their faith . . .
On Women
Moreover, nature also shows here her undeniable regulating power. There is no need to fear the overcrowding of the academic professions by women.
In the medical calling, which next to teaching is the first to be considered in discussing the professions of women, there are at the present time in Germany about 100 women to 30,000 men. For the studious woman as for others who earn a livelihood the academic calling is only a temporary position. The sexes can never be on an equality as regards studies pursued at a university.
On Blacks
The negro has a religious nature. His docile, cheerful, and emotional disposition is much influenced by his immediate environment, whether those surroundings be good or evil. Catholic faith and discipline are known to have a wholesome effect on the race. Observing men and judges of courts have remarked on the law-abiding spirit existing in Catholic coloured communities. Some elements of the white man’s civilization do not always tend to elevate the morality of the negro. The negro is naturally gregarious, and the dissipations and conditions of city life in many instances corrupt the native simplicity of the younger generation to the sorrow of their more conservative elders. (For a view of religion in these later times among the blacks in the native African home of the race, see AFRICA.) Contrary to a prevalent opinion, the negro, when well grounded in the Catholic faith, is tenacious of it.
MM (and others who can lend light to the subject),
I believe both Pope Benedict and others (like Avery Dulles) have said that different documents from Vatican II have different levels of authority, with the constitutions (LG, GS, DV, and SC) having the highest level of authority. This issue is not something I have given much thought to, but your comment to accept Noster Aetete or “bugger off” reminded me of the confusion I have had over such things. It’s not that I have a problem with the document; I assent to the teachings in Noster Aetete. It’s just that I am confused about how much discussion of the various documents from Vatican II is possible.
Frankly, I think that both Chesterton and Belloc were antisemitic (though Chesterton was so jovial it’s hard to imagine him harboring a dislike for much of anyone). The difference is that we generally do not hold a person culpable (or as culpable) for holding repugnant views if those views were the consensus or near consensus of the time and place in which they lived. Not to be antisemitic in England in the early part of the 20th century would have required a lot of effort to break through one’s inherited mental baggage, whereas today it’s believing the sorts of things that Williamson does that takes effort.
Yes, the bishop is a nutter. His ideas about the Holocaust are truly in error. But, he did not himself participate or support the murder of the innocent.
This cannot be said of the contributors to this blog who have participated in and supported the murder of man, many millions of the very most innocent and helpless among us.
Which is worse, politically supporting the murder of the unborn or having a twisted view of some historical facts? Yes, Vox Nova, which is worse on judgment day?
Interesting to see these guys (Fraternity of St. Pius X) being forced to all of a sudden become all PC and ‘apologize’.
As David’s post points out the foundation from which these ‘holy’ men operate is rather untimely and downright scary from today’s point of view – thus they will have much more ‘apologizing’ to do for years to come.
Frankly I imagine this will be the last time such halfhearted mea culpa’s will make it into the press.
Let’s face it these folks will never be mainstreet -isn’t this a large part of the appeal for their followers? They want to be different – what is however sad from a liberal catholic point of view is (as the NYT puts it) that our Pope uses SSPX to move the goalpost – all of a sudden the neo conservative guard around Ratzinger appears moderate in comparison.
Mission accomplished Benideto .
Good to know Zippy that you have it all figured out so “objectively”.
Nice ranking system – uh those favoring abortion rights (the majority of your fellow citizens mind you) manifests do not just foster hatred of the unborn but more specific have murderous intentions ?-How can you even considering leaving your house in the morning if according to your opinion 50% of the populance has murderous intentions? which do not get me wrong would be clearly grave, vicious, despicable, and inexcusable. Your fellow citizens are better than that.
Also last year, an Italian Lefebvist priest celebrated Mass in honor of Benito Mussolini. Again, what does this have anything to do with anti-semitism?
Saying they are not anti-semitic but just friends of Italian Fascism, Vichyism or Francoism isn’t making me feel good about them.
…those favoring abortion rights (the majority of your fellow citizens mind you) manifests do not just foster hatred of the unborn but more specific have murderous intentions…
Exactly right.
Blackadderiv,
Today, any kind of mild or even slight criticism of Jewish history or Jewish beliefs results in an immediate branding of “anti-semitic”. By this rationale nearly every Church Father was anti-Semitic.
Gerald:
Southern Poverty Law Center is hardly a good source to cite, see “The Church of Morris Dees,” in the November 2000 issue of Harpers magazine (authored by Ken Silverstein):
“Today the SPLC [Southern Poverty Law Center] spends most of its time — and money — on a relentless fund-raising campaign, peddling memberships in the church of tolerance with all the zeal of a circuit rider passing the collection plate. ‘He’s the Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker of the civil rights movement,’ renowned anti-death penalty lawyer Millard Farmer says of [Morris] Dees, his former associate, ‘though I don’t mean to malign Jim and Tammy Faye.’”
“The center earned $44 million last year alone — $27 million from fund-raising and $17 million from stocks and other investments — but spent only $13 million on civil rights programs, making itone of the most profitable charities in the country.”
“Morris Dees — who made millions hawking, by direct mail, such humble commodities as birthday cakes, cookbooks, tractor seat cushions, rat poison, and, in exchange for a mailing list containing 700,000 names, presidential candidate George McGovern — is nothing if not a good salesman. So good in fac that in 1998 the Direct Marketing Association inducted him into its Hall of Fame.”
“Morris Dees doesn’t need your financial support. The SPLC is already the wealthiest civil rights group in America . . . . one [fund-raising] pitch, sent out in 1995 — when the center had more than $60 million in reserves — informed would-be donors that the ‘strain on our current operating budget is the greatest in our 25-year history.”
“Asked in 1994 if the SPLC itself, whose leadership consists almost entirely of white men, was in need of an affirmative action policy, Dees replied that ‘probably the most discriminated people in America today are white men when it comes to jobs.’”
“In the early 1960s, Morris Dees sat on the sidelines honing his direct-marketing skills and practicing law while the civil rights movement engulfed the South. ‘Morris and I . . . shared the overriding purpose of making a pile of money,’ recalls Deese’s business parner . . . . They were so unparticular, in fact, that in 1961 they defended a man, guilty of beating up a journalist covering the Freedom Riders, whose legal fees were paid by the Klan.”
“Dees’s compensation alone amounts to one quarter the annual budget of the Atlanta-based Southern Center for Human Rights.”
“Soon the SPLC will move into a new six-story headquarters in downtown Montgomery, just across the street from its current headquarters, a building known locally as the Poverty Palace.”
Morris Dees is nothing more than a self promoting ass who raises obscene amounts of money by denouncing anyone with views he disagrees with as racist or right wing extremist.
Zippy – one has to appreciate your honesty –
so let me get this straight in your ‘humble’ opinion the President of the United States along with a majority of your fellow citizens has murderous intentions? And to top it off in your opinion this clearly more grave, vicious, despicable, and inexcusable than the antisemitism of the holocaust denier Williamson?
Nice going Mr. Zippy.
Perhaps time for you to move to better locales with populations as insightful as Mr. Zippy- how about Saudi Arabia? No abortions, gays are jailed or killed along with adulterers – particular of the female kind – boy what a great society these folks created.
MM:
Like the Southern Poverty Law Center citing Mr. Allen and the National Catholic Register the home of such impecable Catholics as Gumbleton, Chittister and McBride hardly is a good source of impartial information, kind of like quoting the Daily Kos or National Review on the Bush Administration.
In 1971 Georges Pompidou granted Touvier what amounted to a pardon. Did that make Pompidou an anti-semite or neo-nazi?
The National Front is a perfectly legal and large political party in France. Many of its tennants are not much different from the Republican Party: a return to traditional values: to include making access to abortion more difficult or illegal; giving an income to mothers who do not go out to work; promoting local traditional culture; greater independence from the European Union and other international organizations; the establishment of tariffs or other protectionist measures against cheap imports; reinstatement of the death penalty; and, the end of Non-European immigration and the establishment of the jus sanguinis. While I may not agree with all these positions, none of them if held by an American politician would place them in the extreme right.
I seem to remember that Jewish groups did voice vocal opposition to the Carmalite Convent at Auschwitz. Could not the good Archbishop state the truth.
http://york.cuny.edu/~drobnick/paha.html
Is there something wrong with opposing Communists and Freemasons???? I seem to recall that BXVI issued the clarification to the current Code of Cannon Law stating that it was still impermissible for Catholics to become Masons. Don’t forget European Freemasonry is not a buch of guys dressed as clowns driving toy cars in 4th of July parade.
Was the Mass said in honor of Benito or for the repose of his soul, I doubt Mr. Allen or the NCR crowd would know the difference or might be willing to twist the situation.
As for Archbishop ranting against Jews – are they above reproach. Jewish leaders have no qualms against sticking their noses in the internal affairs of the Catholic Church and criticizing its policies and its leaders even one who helped them such as Pius XII.
For the record I think Williamson is an ass. But being an ass or holding weird opinions does not render one a heretic.
You know, even I would not go so far as to compare the Republican party and the French Le Pen movement– although this gives me ideas for future posts! After all, the “mass deportation” lobby is growing stronger in the US… But seriously, Le Pen is a former torturer prone to race-baiting and anti-semitism, and he has made Williamson-esque statements pertaining to the Holocaust.
Oh, and the French Catholic Church regularly denounces Le Pen, and remember the Vatican condemned its precursor, Action Francaise.
“Perhaps time for you to move to better locales…”
It always cracks me up when people think the solution to identifying a terrible problem is to run away and avoid it. If zippy walked into a bar of firefighters to tell them Chicago was burning, grega would smugly sit on his stool sipping his pina colada and say, “Gee, zippy, you alarmist. Seems like its time for you to run away to a new town. Now leave us alone, we’re drinking.”
Meanwhile, zippy keeps carrying the bucket.
RUs – so nice of you accusing the majority of your fellow citizens of having in essence murderous intentions.
What bucket do you think you and Zippy are carrying?
Sure have your opinions – but try to be at least reasonable.
For the record I think Williamson is an ass. But being an ass or holding weird opinions does not render one a heretic.
Anti-semitism is heresy.
…so let me get this straight in your ‘humble’ opinion the President of the United States along with a majority of your fellow citizens has murderous intentions? And to top it off in your opinion this clearly more grave, vicious, despicable, and inexcusable than the antisemitism of the holocaust denier Williamson?
Everyone who favors a legal right to abortion, yes. Exactly. Objectively, they support the murder of millions of children every year in the name of personal autonomy under an existing legal regime. Generic anti-semitism and holocaust denial are wicked and crazy, but less gravely so than the former.
I’d think Le Pen compares favorably to the GOP :-P He probably favors fully paid maternity leave, heh.
As far as this statement goes, it’s the same old BS, if this Williamson character were an actor, he’d be sent to rehab together with his soulmate Mel “Sugartits” Gibson.
SSPX reminds me of a Kinky Friedman song. They’d be singing the chorus “They ain’t makin’ Jews like Jesus anymore.”
As far as antisemitism and Catholicism goes – the two have always gone together. The Nazis only built on what Christendom had created over the centuries. (and it’s alive and well once more in ultra-Catholic Poland) First, the Jews were robbed of their book, then they were told that they didn’t know their own book properly and were indeed faithless.
Not just that, they also killed god’s only son. “They” – you know, 2000 years later as a Jew you’re still part of “them”. And the gospels…oh how nicely they have “the Jews” incriminate, heck, curse themselves. Not really good news for Jews.
Now, Jews killing a Jew..how is that “special” ? It’s not like Jesus was a tourist from Norway (although he tends to be depicted blond, so who knows) who fell prey to Jewish gangbangers Big Schwitz and P. Dreidel.
By the time the gospels were written, one needed to ingratiate oneself with the empire, so the whole Jesus-being-killed-by-Romans thing was glossed over, with Pilate being basically a humanitarian with OCD.
Not to mention this ludicrous idea of guilt being handed down, as if one were some sort of Borg creature. Well, idiocy is the rule rather than the exception in humanity.
The ugly history of Catholicism’s organized discrimination and persecution – and folkloristic hatred – of Jews saw a lucidum intervallum in the by all accounts lovely Giuseppe Roncalli, who saved countless Jews personally. “Sono il vostro fratello Giuseppe”, he said to a group of Jews. But, in this day and age it’s grumpy old men like Pius IX. (who makes X. seem like a party animal) who are en vogue and SSPXers feel welcome again. Enjoy.
The chairwoman of the German Jewish Council has suspended contact with the Catholic Church in the aftermath of the rehabilitation of Mr. Williamson. I wonder whether Creative Minority Report once more will joke that there are so few rabbis. (as they put it, “the whole breadbox of them”. Well, better than “the whole chimney of them”, I guess). A common sentiment expressed among the staunch is that Jews should, in essence, STFU and be glad that they, the staunch, are praying for their perfidious souls.
Oh and lastly, Richard Williamson is under investigation by the district attorney of Regensburg, since Williamson supposedly made his Holocaust-denying remarks at the SSPX seminary there. Holocaust denial is a crime in Germany and Austria. Of course the creep won’t return to Germany now.
British “historian” David Irving served time in Austria, e.g.
According to Der Spiegel
http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/gesellschaft/0,1518,604259,00.html
Anti-Semitism a heresy? Hatred of anyone merely for their religion or ethnicity and taking adverse actions against them because of that hatred is a sin, but I wouldn’t characterize it as heresy.
What then constitutes “anti-semitism”? It has turned into one of those phrases that is tossed out to demonize an opponent and to discredit anything that they may say, such as “terrorist” or “fascist”.
Does being anti-zionist or anti-Israel constitute being anti-semitic? I would say no, but there are many, e.g. the JDL or AIPAC, that would make that charge against any that say anything derogatory against Zionism or Israel.
Does saying AIPAC and other lobbyist for Isreal hold disproportionate sway on Capitol Hill and in the White House and that this is bad for both the U.S. and Israel as have Meirsheim and Walt did in their book The Israel Lobby constitute anti-semitism. I would say no, but that is exactly the charge that has been made against these scholars.
Does saying that the American Jewish establishment exploits the memory of the Nazi Holocaust for financial and political gain, as well as to further the interests of Israel and that this “Holocaust industry” has corrupted Jewish culture, as well as the authentic memory of the Holocaust as Norm Finkelstein did in his book The Holocaust Industry? I would say no, but there are those that say anyone who compares abortion to the holocaust or who point out that the 12 million killed in Nazi concentration camps half were not Jews or compares genocidal acts in the Sudan or Albania denegrates the memory of those Jews who died under the Nazi’s and constitutes anti-semitism.
The Allen article cited by MM states:
“[T]raditionalists often uphold a robust missionary theology, insisting that the church cannot renounce its duty to evangelize any group, including Jews. Similarly, traditionalists often challenge Vatican II’s teaching on religious freedom, church-state separation, and interreligious dialogue. Neither position, observers say, necessarily conceals latent anti-Semitism.”
Allen in this statement seems to imply that Vatican II does in fact state that Catholics should abandon efforts to convert Jews and other non-Catholics. Is this a correct interpretation of Vatican II and do continued attempts to convert Jews (or even to point out that if they are saved they owe it as does all mankind-Christian and non-Christian- to Jesus Christ) constitute anti-semitism. I would say no, but there are many Jewish leaders who argue that any prayer much less action for their conversion or salvation constitutes anti-semitism.
This is the main problem with defining anti-semitism as “heresy”. What constitutes “anti-semitism”??? Does holding a generic dislike of a group of people based upon their ethnic or belief background, whether this dislike is rational or irrational, constitute a sin or heresy? If so, God help us all.
Gerald:
David Irving was prosecuted for “holocaust denial” by German authorities. Williamson faces persecution by German authorities for his stupid comments. So freakin what???? You seem to gloat over this fact. State authorities have said these people are criminals ergo they are.
Europeans have chosen to penalize “thought crimes”. Is this a vast improvement over Hitler’s Germany or Stalin’s Russia?
The political Left has as much faith in the marketplace of ideas as they do in any other marketplace – NONE. The people are cows and idiots who need the State and its officials to tell them what is acceptable to believe and to do.
Everyone who favors a legal right to abortion, yes. Exactly. Objectively, they support the murder of millions of children every year in the name of personal autonomy under an existing legal regime.
Zippy,
What about the five Catholic justices on the Supreme Court?
Zippy –
it is certainly somewhat ‘refreshing’ to see the true consequences of some folks opinions. Let’s just say I am sure glad that your ilk and the ‘pious’ overachievers in the mold of SS PX’s Williamson are not in charge in the free west – let’s keep the Talibans of this world simmering in Pakistan and Afghanistan – they do plenty of damage already.
As David Nickols posts earlier point out so nicely the urge of some to go back in time do not have exactly as cute and innocent of consequences.
Williamsons views are not outliers – they are the immediate consequence of the mindset.
Our society can handle this minority view just fine – but it is rather clear that such movements will never see the light of the day in a broad way.
A more eloquent voice.
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/01/a-twist.html
David Irving served time in prison in Austria. I hope Williamson pops by for a visit. One wonders what kind of curriculum that SSPX seminary.
0800 Fiddleback wearing 101. Today: how brown is your hairshirt ?
0900 Overly pious expressions 202
1000 The Jews are to blame for everything 303 Today: How the Jews profited from a Holocaust that didn’t take place
1100 Generalissimo Franco. The man. The leader. The lover.
1200 How to spot a Freemason.
1300 Lunch. Schnell, schnell ! Do not vorry, ze food vas prepared by Aryan vomen, barefoot and pregnant for the 15th time, all ze children are blond.
1400 Learning the vernacular. A treasury of German song. Today: Honoring Horst Wessel
Sieg Heil, y’all.
Anti-Semitism a heresy? Hatred of anyone merely for their religion or ethnicity and taking adverse actions against them because of that hatred is a sin, but I wouldn’t characterize it as heresy.
You have a narrow view of heresy. The purpose of the Church is reconciliation. Racism, anti-semitism, etc. are directly opposed to the very basic reason the Church exists. Anti-semitism would seem to be in fact particularly heretical due to the special relationship between the Judaism and Christianity. Anti-semitism is heresy.
Is this a correct interpretation of Vatican II…
From my reading, I would say no, it’s not a correct reading, but there are certainly many ways to go about praying for and working for conversion, as well as the relative focus this sort of activity receives. It’s too big of a question to address here and is really peripheral to the claim I am making.
Does holding a generic dislike of a group of people based upon their ethnic or belief background, whether this dislike is rational or irrational, constitute a sin or heresy?
It is most certainly sin, and I am also arguing that it — and in particular anti-semitism — is heretical.
If so, God help us all.
Why? Do you think everyone is anti-semitic? Everyone is racist?
David:
I’ve extensively criticized Justice Roberts for his inexcusable support of the abortion legal regime at the appellate level, among other things. Scalia opposes the abortion legal regime, of course, but he does so on the grounds of legal positivism, which discredits him entirely in my view.
Grega:
Being explicitly against the mass murder of the innocent, currently enshrined in our legal regime and widely supported by the population, is not the same thing as being the Taliban. Though that ought to be obvious. There is historical precedent for a population being widely supportive of the mass murder of the innocent in the name of the free and equal new man, self created through reason and will, of course; but that also, the fact that there is historical precedent, does not excuse it.
Gerald:
Apparently I hit a sore spot.
You are quite eager to refer to others as fascist, but you are the one who wants to suppress other people’s opinions using the police powers of the State. What does that make you?
I am sure that you feel that your motives are pure and correct, but so did the Nazi and Communist in their efforts to create a Utopia.
Intolerance is rife on this board but I see it coming predominately from one side.
Michael:
I wish that I could develop the pure and saintly heart that you seem to argue that we must have as Catholics and “love” AND “like” everyone.
I believe that my minimal obligation as a Catholic is to “love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.” Also, to realize that all men are my neighbors.
However, “love” does not always equate with “like”. I can still bear a rational or irrational dislike for an individual or group of people but still love them as my fellow men. I may not like Joseph Stalin but I should love him as a creature of God and hope for his salvation. There are lots of time I do not like my wife (and for some reason there may be times she may not like me)but we still love one another. I may not like homosexuals or the homosexual life style but again I should love them as creatures of God and hope that they turn away from that sinful lifestyle. As a Catholic I properly believe that Judism and Hinduism are not sufficient for eternal salvation and I may have a generic dislike of Jews or Hindus as obnoxious groups of individuals but again I should love them as creatures of God and hope for their salvation.
We do live in a free society (despite what Gerald would like) and we do have a certain freedom of association and speech. We have an obligation as Christians to spread the faith. Vatican II did not change that just those who have misinterpreted the documents.
In short, as humans it is impossible to control our likes and dislikes. I believe that we should strive to control these passions and not do physical harm to others or to use words to purposefully hurt them – failure to do so is a sin, but holding certain prejudices does not in itself constitute a sin or heresy.
I also believe that part of the price of living of a free society is that we have to put up with some idiot who holds stupid or irrational beliefs expressing them freely. But, quite frankly as long as such a person restricts himself to words and debate – so what. People’s feelings may be hurt, but with some people no matter what you say or how you say it their feelings will be hurt or they will act offended.
Awww, I don’t tolerate poor Dicky Williamson. I wish I could, but my Jewish masters’ orders must be obeyed. I guess you could call the murder of 6 million Jews a sore spot, relatives of friends among them. Williamson would like me though, I am 100% Aryan, we have proof going back to the 17th century (one needed such proof). When a country whose own population partook in the Holocaust decides it does not want swine like Williamson to preach freely, it is its right. I’ve been to Mauthausen (extermination camp) twice, I’ve stood in the gas chamber and in the crematorium. Williamson has no right to spew his filth on the very soil the horrors took place.
This is not an issue in the USA. The USA has usually been pretty straightforward about its own genocides and other atrocities. Either via honest scholarship or pure pride and glee. Here’s a casino, last Mohican.
Btw, now an Italian SSPX priest has publicly expressed doubts regarding the Holocaust, saying gas chambers were for disinfection only. Like him, so the priest, Williamson was merely discussing technical aspects of gas chambers.
Now the “Traditional Anglican Communion” is making progress in becoming Catholic. They were so aghast over women priests and gays that they rightly feel Rome is their true home. Ah, purity. Judenrein. Frauenrein. Schwulenrein.
Next: Pope Benedict receives Taliban into the Catholic church.
jpf – I will pause for a little while to allow others to take you to task for actually defending anti-semitism.
One question, though: Did you actually read (and understand) my last comment?
“Europeans have chosen to penalize “thought crimes”. Is this a vast improvement over Hitler’s Germany or Stalin’s Russia?”
Hmm…let’s see….
- 6 million Jews murdered. Tens of millions more murdered by Nazis and Communists.
vs.
- Dick Williamson under investigation for Holocaust denial
Nah..you’re wrong….this is WAY worse. The poor man.
I’ve extensively criticized Justice Roberts for his inexcusable support of the abortion legal regime at the appellate level, among other things.
Zippy, what are you talking about here?
John Allen has a new piece about another Holocaust-denying Lefebvist priest: Floriano Abrahamowicz in Italy. This clown said that the Jews were “a people of deicide”, that the gas chambers for only there for purposes of disinfection, and defended a German SS war criminal who executed 335 civilians in Rome in 1944 in retaliation for the deaths of German soldiers.
I believe this is Pope Benedict’s worst decision of his papacy. How about a simple ultimatum: accept Nostra Aatate, Dignitatis Humanae, and the other conciliar documents or get lost.
Zippy, what are you talking about here?
This. And this. For example. And on Scalia, I’m talking about, for example, this.
If you search “Roberts” on my blog you’ll get a number of the things I’ve written on the subject.
oh, once they look more closely into that motley crew, the “colorful” quotes will never end. And that’s just about the Holocaust….their idiotic view of women and, well, everything, render comedians unemployed.
Zippy – Pope Benedict did send President Obama a congratulatory Telegram – do you think he would have done so if he had your line of reasoning in mind?
Me thinks – You ought to give your fellow citizens more credit.
To now compare them to German Nazi supporters is inappropriate.
Try to come to terms with the fact that the free society you are blessed to be born into after much thought and rather painful deliberation decided as a communitas that termination of pregnancy for a number of resons is NOT murder. Embryos are not Babies or Children. While we most certain should work as Catholics towards elimination certainly of all socially motivated abortions – calling those who differ with us as having murderous intention is not appropriate.
…do you think he would have done so if he had your line of reasoning in mind?
Yes.
Embryos are not Babies or Children.
Yes, they are.
…calling those who differ with us as having murderous intention is not appropriate.
I don’t know about appropriate, but it is true.
It’s an odd compulsion that forces people to bring abortion into everything. I remember someone bringing it up re: baseball once.
For the record, a blastocyst is a blastocyst, not an infant. An infant is an infant, not a blastocyst. Zippy may be infantile, but he is not an infant – or a blastocyst. Human blastocysts are human, human skin cells are human. Feline blastocysts are not human. Masturbation is not genocide.
Zippy,
Though I wish it weren’t so, there is a pervasive confusion in the United States as to when human life-personhood begins.
In the oder of being, I agree that the matter is very simple; human life-personhood begins at conception.
But in the order of knowing, it’s quite another matter in our country(and sadly, sadly so).
With this in mind, don’t you think you are going to far in saying that all who are for the right for a woman to have an abortion are necessarily with murderous intentions?
With this in mind, don’t you think you are going to far in saying that all who are for the right for a woman to have an abortion are necessarily with murderous intentions?
No. There was at one time a pervasive belief that blacks were not fully human, and clearly the Nazis believed that Jews (among others) were subhuman. Invocation of pervasive belief has no influence whatsoever over the objective facts of the matter. Murderous intention toward real human beings is murderous intention toward real human beings, irrespective of the subjective stories people tell themselves about the subhuman nature of those murdered.
Zippy,
But we are speaking of intention, which involves subjective belief…
No! Not in the sense you are suggesting, it doesn’t. If you intend to kill that, and that is in fact a human person, then you intend to kill a human person, whether or not you subjectively believe that to be a fully human person. This is true whether that is a Jew, a Negro, a Fetus, or any other human person.
Zippy,
I’d like it too if matters are as simple as you propose. But if you do not believe that an embryo is a human being and you agree to abort it, your intention is not to kill a human being…even if in reality what you are killing is such…
Zippy,
If you see a stranger in the dark, mistakenly believe it is your girlfriend and thus whisper to her that you love her, it is not in this case your intention to tell a stranger that you love her.
Welp, and it’s a right to choose between one’s own life and that of a blastocyst or embryo or fetus. No woman can be forced to die or undergo absurd Catholic loophole procedures instead of the reasonable solution (e.g. ectopic pregnancy). Never gonna happen, deal with it.
A fully human blastocyst is fully human. I’d still choose an actual person over a few cells that may become a person, if the choice were such; you may feel differently.
Gerald:
Arresting people for thought crimes or voicing unpopular or wacky opinions is definitely not as bad as killing 6 million people.
Again, once you open the door where does it stop. Should the Pope be arrested the next time he visits Canada or some other enlighted country for promoting the Catechism which states, “Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,140 tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.” They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.” After all in enlightened society such statements are anti-homosexual and homophobic and could lead to countless acts of violence against homosexuals.
Furthermore, ask yourself if the enactment of such laws against holocaust denial and constant self flaggellation by governmental leaders in Germany and other countries for crimes committed by their governments 50+ years ago have diminished skinhead activity and anti-semitism. Or, has it increased such activity and hatred in that the German and other European youth of today resent being held responsible for the crimes of their grandfathers. Maybe you’re happy being a self-loathing Austrian, but not all are.
If you see a stranger in the dark, mistakenly believe it is your girlfriend and thus whisper to her that you love her, it is not in this case your intention to tell a stranger that you love her.
Sure. But that is a mistaken perception. Killing a person that you assert to be subhuman is not a mistaken perception in the same sense. Killing a Jew on purpose while asserting the belief that he is subhuman still entails an intention to kill a Jew, who is in fact fully human.
Hey Morning’s Minion,
It’s 2009. No one cares about Dignitatis Humanae. No one cares about Nostra Aetate. Now get over it.
…perhaps the most ridiculous thing I’ve read on the Catholic blogosphere….
“Maybe you’re happy being a self-loathing Austrian, but not all are.”
I’m Austrian by accident, it’s neither something to loathe oneself nor praise oneself for. It’s about as meaningful as my eyes being green. Associating one’s identity with a geographical coincidence is a curious thing to do. National pride is idiotic. Granted, Austrians engage in it less than the average American. But, when you get reamed by business 24/7 it must help to chant the “greatest country in the world” mantra.
The Nazis, young and old, always say…enough talking about it already. Oh and blaming neo-Nazis on “self-flagellation”, that’s just rich. Let go of the guilt and the neo-Nazis will vanish.
“Or, has it increased such activity and hatred in that the German and other European youth of today resent being held responsible for the crimes of their grandfathers.”
Um, nobody is holding “youth” responsible. I remember this talk, “stop beating yourself up over Hitler”, and then it’d only been 40 years. Heck, many Germans were very angry that they were shown concentration camp footage right off the bat. This kind of argumentation against “self flagellation” is one beer away from a heartfelt Sieg Heil.
Now Canada, apart from being superior to the USA in pretty much everything, at least as regular people’s lives are concerned, does go a bit far with the PC stuff. I wouldn’t demand Holocaust denial be illegal in the US, it’s another matter in Austria and Germany.
Of course, official Catholicism is homophobic and sexist from divinity to ground crew, but I don’t think it should result in the pope’s arrest or in the illegality of voicing such opinions. It is however true that such views facilitate gay bashing, just like traditionally Christianity was and often still is synonymous with antisemitism. You can’t declare something intrinsically disordered, unnatural etc. without stirring up hate, no matter how much the loons yelling “Sodomites!” claim that they merely hate the sin.
Mark,
Really? After all I’ve read from you?
Matt,
my personal view of this matter is for the most part alligned with what almost all Religion on this planet teach us.
For me the truly disturbing Abortions are the socially motivated one – here I am all for a clear line and a clear NO. Terminations after Rape, Incest and because of health of the mother on the other hand are in my view here to stay.
It seems to me that as a society we are actually slowly but ever so surely moving in the proper direction – certainly the number of Abortions are slowly declining.
However for many good or not so good reasons realistically we will not see this country criminalizing Abortion outright – and yes this means that our society will continue to make a destinction between embryos and babies which means that Zippy is not walking amoung crowds of folks with murderous intention.
Now you raise the ususal specter of if we allow for A, soon B,C,D and E will follow. Here I have more trust in our fellow brothers and sisters than you seem to have. For me there is no automatic chain reaction in place.
Zippy, you others are of course free to label the majority of our fellow citizens however you want to – in my view Zippy’s not so cute characterization of the majority as having ‘murdereous intentions’ is a not a very helpful way out of our situation.
…society will continue to make a destinction between embryos and babies which means that Zippy is not walking amoung crowds of folks with murderous intention.
Society doesn’t make distinctions in the sense of bringing them into existence. The distinction is either valid, or not, objectively; and in fact it is invalid to treat unborn children as subhuman, just as it is invalid to treat blacks and Jews as subhuman. Whether this or that rhetoric is helpful to this or that political objective is a question, but it is a very different question from the question “what is true?”
And what is true is that support for abortion rights manifests a murderous intention, necessarily and always, by the very nature of things.
My folks used to drag me to the Latin Mass (SSPX Version 1.0) back in the 80′s when I was kid. They missed the Latin mass since Vatican II.
However, it soon became apparent to all (me sooner than the folks) that the majority of priests there were nutjobs, with Williamson leading the parade.
And what a bunch! The Long Island group were a bunch of money grubbers from the jump (their “priory” was located in ritzy Oyster Bay Cove and didn’t even have parking for the churchgoers!) and Williamson – I’ll never forget this – once gave a sermon on the evils of Koolats (as the shorts/skirt combo that women wore were called back then). It sounded to me like he had both a problem and a fascination with Koolats. Yup, Koolats and Jews. Those were the two things on his mind back in the day.
Finally, my folks came to their senses and broke off ties with these people. SSPX taught me one valuable thing: forget organized religion and take a walk in the woods every Sunday instead. I can’t tell you how much happier and wonderful this has made my life. Try it.