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	<title>Comments on: Krugman on Equality</title>
	<atom:link href="http://vox-nova.com/2008/10/20/krugman-on-equality/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/10/20/krugman-on-equality/</link>
	<description>Catholic perspectives on culture, society, and politics</description>
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		<title>By: More on Krugman, Status, and Equality &#171; Vox Nova</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/10/20/krugman-on-equality/#comment-41034</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[More on Krugman, Status, and Equality &#171; Vox Nova]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Oct 2008 18:08:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=4704#comment-41034</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Status, and&#160;Equality  A Slate column from twelve years ago probably doesn&#8217;t warrant a second response post (even if it is by Vox Nova&#8217;s favorite Nobel laureate), but I&#8217;m going to do it anyway. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Status, and&nbsp;Equality  A Slate column from twelve years ago probably doesn&#8217;t warrant a second response post (even if it is by Vox Nova&#8217;s favorite Nobel laureate), but I&#8217;m going to do it anyway. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: More on Krugman, Status, and Equality &#171; Blackadder&#8217;s Lair</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/10/20/krugman-on-equality/#comment-41033</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[More on Krugman, Status, and Equality &#171; Blackadder&#8217;s Lair]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Oct 2008 18:06:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=4704#comment-41033</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Status, and&#160;Equality A Slate column from twelve years ago probably doesn&#8217;t warrant a second response post (even if it is by Vox Nova&#8217;s favorite Nobel laureate), but I&#8217;m going to do it anyway. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Status, and&nbsp;Equality A Slate column from twelve years ago probably doesn&#8217;t warrant a second response post (even if it is by Vox Nova&#8217;s favorite Nobel laureate), but I&#8217;m going to do it anyway. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Thursday</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/10/20/krugman-on-equality/#comment-40990</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Thursday]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Oct 2008 05:09:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=4704#comment-40990</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As Steve Sailer has noted, the problem with being poor in North America right now is not that you do not have enough stuff, but that you have to live around other poor people, with all their attendant social pathologies.  Poor people tend to be poor at least partially because they have such characteristics as low intelligence and poor impulse control, and no increase in either their relative or absolute standard of living is going to change those characteristics.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As Steve Sailer has noted, the problem with being poor in North America right now is not that you do not have enough stuff, but that you have to live around other poor people, with all their attendant social pathologies.  Poor people tend to be poor at least partially because they have such characteristics as low intelligence and poor impulse control, and no increase in either their relative or absolute standard of living is going to change those characteristics.</p>
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		<title>By: DarwinCatholic</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/10/20/krugman-on-equality/#comment-40645</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[DarwinCatholic]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 20:56:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=4704#comment-40645</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[First, I think your example is solid and that Krugman&#039;s idea that a middle class family from 1950 would decline to become a 25th percentile family in 1996 is based on rather flawed assumptions.  Sure, people pay attention to their relative wealth compared to others, but it&#039;s the others they can see at the moment that are key.  Most people not completely overcome by pride (&quot;Better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven...&quot;) would probably make their decision mased in immediate material improvement, but might later develop discontent if they found themselves stuck at a low comparative material position compared to their new neighbors.

How much this is a problem doubtless depends on one&#039;s ideas of morality and the &quot;good life&quot;.  It seems to me that there&#039;s a decent moral case to be made that if one has the essentials of a &quot;good life&quot; (good food, clothing, and shelter, access to basic medical care, leisure time and the tools for pleasurable leisure) that it really shouldn&#039;t matter at all whether other people are richer or not.  

However it&#039;s certainly an accurate observation of human nature that even if we ourselves our comfortable, we eventually become upset at others having more if we do not see our way open to achieving a similar status at some point in the future.  The question is: does this represent some sort of natural right and ordered desire (as Krugman seems to implicitly assume) or is it a universal human tendency towards envy?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First, I think your example is solid and that Krugman&#8217;s idea that a middle class family from 1950 would decline to become a 25th percentile family in 1996 is based on rather flawed assumptions.  Sure, people pay attention to their relative wealth compared to others, but it&#8217;s the others they can see at the moment that are key.  Most people not completely overcome by pride (&#8220;Better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven&#8230;&#8221;) would probably make their decision mased in immediate material improvement, but might later develop discontent if they found themselves stuck at a low comparative material position compared to their new neighbors.</p>
<p>How much this is a problem doubtless depends on one&#8217;s ideas of morality and the &#8220;good life&#8221;.  It seems to me that there&#8217;s a decent moral case to be made that if one has the essentials of a &#8220;good life&#8221; (good food, clothing, and shelter, access to basic medical care, leisure time and the tools for pleasurable leisure) that it really shouldn&#8217;t matter at all whether other people are richer or not.  </p>
<p>However it&#8217;s certainly an accurate observation of human nature that even if we ourselves our comfortable, we eventually become upset at others having more if we do not see our way open to achieving a similar status at some point in the future.  The question is: does this represent some sort of natural right and ordered desire (as Krugman seems to implicitly assume) or is it a universal human tendency towards envy?</p>
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		<title>By: RR</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/10/20/krugman-on-equality/#comment-40638</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[RR]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 19:32:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=4704#comment-40638</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Does it make a difference? It seems to me that what we consider &quot;absolute poverty&quot; is relative to our own status. &quot;Absolute poverty&quot; needs to segregate necessities from luxuries but that is based on the availability of those things in society.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does it make a difference? It seems to me that what we consider &#8220;absolute poverty&#8221; is relative to our own status. &#8220;Absolute poverty&#8221; needs to segregate necessities from luxuries but that is based on the availability of those things in society.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike J.</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/10/20/krugman-on-equality/#comment-40633</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike J.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 18:46:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=4704#comment-40633</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[BA, 
    I think the problem with your comparison is that it assumes the immigrant is comparing their new material situation against their *current* neighbors, not their previous neighbors. For the immigrants and possibly first generation, what you hear is, &quot;we&#039;re better here than there&quot;, so the comparison is made to the old country, not the new.

-Mike]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BA,<br />
    I think the problem with your comparison is that it assumes the immigrant is comparing their new material situation against their *current* neighbors, not their previous neighbors. For the immigrants and possibly first generation, what you hear is, &#8220;we&#8217;re better here than there&#8221;, so the comparison is made to the old country, not the new.</p>
<p>-Mike</p>
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		<title>By: blackadderiv</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/10/20/krugman-on-equality/#comment-40625</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[blackadderiv]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 17:17:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=4704#comment-40625</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Zak, 

Some parts of Africa have higher Gini coefficients than the U.S. &lt;a href=&quot;http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Gini_Coefficient_World_Human_Development_Report_2007-2008.png&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;much of it does not.&lt;/a&gt; In any event, when I spoke of immigrants choosing a lower relative position in the U.S. than in their home country, I had in mind not so much immigrants from Latin America as from places like Canada, Europe, the sub-continent, and various other parts of Asia. These countries have less inequality than the U.S. and immigrants from those countries do not generally come from the most impoverished or ill-educated classes. Yet the immigration flows between those countries and the U.S. is decidedly one-sided.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Zak, </p>
<p>Some parts of Africa have higher Gini coefficients than the U.S. <a href="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Gini_Coefficient_World_Human_Development_Report_2007-2008.png" rel="nofollow">much of it does not.</a> In any event, when I spoke of immigrants choosing a lower relative position in the U.S. than in their home country, I had in mind not so much immigrants from Latin America as from places like Canada, Europe, the sub-continent, and various other parts of Asia. These countries have less inequality than the U.S. and immigrants from those countries do not generally come from the most impoverished or ill-educated classes. Yet the immigration flows between those countries and the U.S. is decidedly one-sided.</p>
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		<title>By: premodern</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/10/20/krugman-on-equality/#comment-40623</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[premodern]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 16:34:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=4704#comment-40623</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It is not just the absolute and/or relative material condition upon arrival that is taken into consideration but the POTENTIAL FUTURE material condition that counts. Unlike most of the countries that these people are leaving, the US is still viewed as the &quot;Land of Opportunity&quot;.  The US is still viewed as one of the few countries where a person can improve their material condition significantly with wisdom and hard work, regardless of their education, family tree, race, religion etc.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is not just the absolute and/or relative material condition upon arrival that is taken into consideration but the POTENTIAL FUTURE material condition that counts. Unlike most of the countries that these people are leaving, the US is still viewed as the &#8220;Land of Opportunity&#8221;.  The US is still viewed as one of the few countries where a person can improve their material condition significantly with wisdom and hard work, regardless of their education, family tree, race, religion etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/10/20/krugman-on-equality/#comment-40622</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeremy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 16:32:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=4704#comment-40622</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There is much more to happiness than relative materialism.  Health and a sense of belonging to a community, but once those are achieved, then relative materialism begins to take root.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is much more to happiness than relative materialism.  Health and a sense of belonging to a community, but once those are achieved, then relative materialism begins to take root.</p>
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		<title>By: Zak</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/10/20/krugman-on-equality/#comment-40621</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zak]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 16:27:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=4704#comment-40621</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Plus, people emigrate to communities where those immediately around them will still have similar levels of wealth, so it&#039;s as possible to keep up with the Sanchezes in Pilsen in Chicago as it was back in Durango.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Plus, people emigrate to communities where those immediately around them will still have similar levels of wealth, so it&#8217;s as possible to keep up with the Sanchezes in Pilsen in Chicago as it was back in Durango.</p>
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		<title>By: Zak</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/10/20/krugman-on-equality/#comment-40620</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zak]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 16:25:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=4704#comment-40620</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t think your counter-example works all that well.  People who emigrate to the US see their absolute material condition improve, yes, but it is not certain that relative material condition decreases substantially.  They are already coming from societies with high inequality (China, Mexico, most of the rest of Latin America, and sub-saharan Africa all have higher gini coefficients than the US, don&#039;t they?), and most immigrants, although not completely impoverished, since immigrating usually requires some capital to pay for it, are at the lower end of the economic spectrum anyway.  It&#039;s not the petty bourgeousie and aspiring upper middle class coming here from Mexico, it&#039;s farmers whose produce is no longer competitive and laborers looking for similar jobs paying more.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think your counter-example works all that well.  People who emigrate to the US see their absolute material condition improve, yes, but it is not certain that relative material condition decreases substantially.  They are already coming from societies with high inequality (China, Mexico, most of the rest of Latin America, and sub-saharan Africa all have higher gini coefficients than the US, don&#8217;t they?), and most immigrants, although not completely impoverished, since immigrating usually requires some capital to pay for it, are at the lower end of the economic spectrum anyway.  It&#8217;s not the petty bourgeousie and aspiring upper middle class coming here from Mexico, it&#8217;s farmers whose produce is no longer competitive and laborers looking for similar jobs paying more.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael J. Iafrate</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/10/20/krugman-on-equality/#comment-40611</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael J. Iafrate]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 16:08:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=4704#comment-40611</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That article &quot;In Praise of Sweatshops&quot; is my favorite.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That article &#8220;In Praise of Sweatshops&#8221; is my favorite.</p>
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