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	<title>Comments on: McCain and Obama: The Same on ESCR?</title>
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	<description>Catholic perspectives on culture, society, and politics</description>
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		<title>By: 1superdave</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/09/29/mccain-and-obama-the-same-on-escr/#comment-39104</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[1superdave]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Oct 2008 19:51:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[The whole debate is not about federal funding but the world view of political correct humanist and attheist that populate the democrat party. It&#039;s as if some are trying to justify voting for a canidate based on a very narrow distiction while failing to to look at the results of democrat stonewalling any and every attemp to stop the progression of moral and cultural destruction. Anyone think that Ruth Ginsburg is not worse than John Roberts on issues that should be dear to the catholic church. Oboma unfettered will install the most millitant anti-life judges he can find. While McCain will have to nominate judges that he can get past the dem controled senate. Ya&#039;ll hate George Bush, but for all his short coming, his legacy will be two very solid Justices that were passed with the help of John McCain. Intellectual Honesty anyone?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The whole debate is not about federal funding but the world view of political correct humanist and attheist that populate the democrat party. It&#8217;s as if some are trying to justify voting for a canidate based on a very narrow distiction while failing to to look at the results of democrat stonewalling any and every attemp to stop the progression of moral and cultural destruction. Anyone think that Ruth Ginsburg is not worse than John Roberts on issues that should be dear to the catholic church. Oboma unfettered will install the most millitant anti-life judges he can find. While McCain will have to nominate judges that he can get past the dem controled senate. Ya&#8217;ll hate George Bush, but for all his short coming, his legacy will be two very solid Justices that were passed with the help of John McCain. Intellectual Honesty anyone?</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/09/29/mccain-and-obama-the-same-on-escr/#comment-38618</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeremy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Sep 2008 13:06:13 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[According to Wikipedia, the first pregnancy was achieved in 1973.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>According to Wikipedia, the first pregnancy was achieved in 1973.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/09/29/mccain-and-obama-the-same-on-escr/#comment-38617</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeremy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Sep 2008 13:02:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=4344#comment-38617</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Research into IVF was occuring before 1973.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Research into IVF was occuring before 1973.</p>
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		<title>By: David Nickol</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/09/29/mccain-and-obama-the-same-on-escr/#comment-38615</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Nickol]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Sep 2008 11:59:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=4344#comment-38615</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;At the time, abortion was not rampant and no one was clamoring to create nascent human life for the purposes of harvesting stem cells. &lt;/i&gt;

&lt;b&gt;Year       Abortions&lt;/b&gt;
1973     744,600
1974     898,600
1975     1,034,200
1976     1,179,300
1977     1,316,700
1978     1,409,600
 
On July 25, 1978, Louise Joy Brown, the world&#039;s first successful &quot;test-tube&quot; baby was born in Great Britain.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>At the time, abortion was not rampant and no one was clamoring to create nascent human life for the purposes of harvesting stem cells. </i></p>
<p><b>Year       Abortions</b><br />
1973     744,600<br />
1974     898,600<br />
1975     1,034,200<br />
1976     1,179,300<br />
1977     1,316,700<br />
1978     1,409,600</p>
<p>On July 25, 1978, Louise Joy Brown, the world&#8217;s first successful &#8220;test-tube&#8221; baby was born in Great Britain.</p>
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		<title>By: jeremy</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/09/29/mccain-and-obama-the-same-on-escr/#comment-38614</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jeremy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Sep 2008 11:30:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=4344#comment-38614</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[My understanding is that there was resistance to IVF back when IVF was first introduced.  There were concerns that it was a slippery slope to the commodification of human life.  At the time, abortion was not rampant and no one was clamoring to create nascent human life for the purposes of harvesting stem cells.   

To address the hypocrisy claims:  It is not being a hypocrite to not tilt at a windmill.  Since there is no political momentum to ban IVF, it is pointless to refuse to ban pubilc funding of ESCR until political moment builds to ban IVF.  Especially because such political momentum isn&#039;t even on the radar.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My understanding is that there was resistance to IVF back when IVF was first introduced.  There were concerns that it was a slippery slope to the commodification of human life.  At the time, abortion was not rampant and no one was clamoring to create nascent human life for the purposes of harvesting stem cells.   </p>
<p>To address the hypocrisy claims:  It is not being a hypocrite to not tilt at a windmill.  Since there is no political momentum to ban IVF, it is pointless to refuse to ban pubilc funding of ESCR until political moment builds to ban IVF.  Especially because such political momentum isn&#8217;t even on the radar.</p>
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		<title>By: digbydolben</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/09/29/mccain-and-obama-the-same-on-escr/#comment-38600</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[digbydolben]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Sep 2008 03:19:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=4344#comment-38600</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Question: Where do the embryos for &quot;stem cell research&quot; come from? Is anybody--are the government?--producing foetuses for the explicit purpose of harvesting their organs for stem-cell research?

Possible Answer: Almost all the stem cells for research come from the zygotes produced in &quot;fertility clinics.&quot; Whenever a rich, privileged woman and her husband, hell-bent and determined not to adopt, but to have something with their own DNA in it, pay $10-20,000.OO to some medical moral idiot for the production of 20-40 zygotes in a petri dish, ONLY ONE IS CHOSEN FOR &quot;IMPLANTATION.&quot;

Question: Where do the other zygotes go?

Possible--no, LIKELY--Answer: To the &quot;reserch labs.&quot; SOLD to them, I might add.

Question: Have you ever heard the Catholic Church offer to &quot;funeralize&quot; all those zygotes--or even the embryos, after they been &quot;implanted&quot;?

Answer: Are you kidding? Spend money on THAT?

Question: Why does the &quot;moral responsibility&quot; for stem-cell research always fall upon politicians and legislators, in the sermonizing of Holy Mother Church in America?

Answer: They&#039;re a much easier target than the depraved--and often CATHOLIC--American upper middle classes and their medical friends. Who wants to hear a sermon in church about the moral responsibility to adopt and forsake the &quot;wonders of medical science&quot; in the interest of preserving the &quot;whole cloth&quot; of life?

&lt;b&gt;Until the Catholic Church targets the real source of this moral degeneracy, which is the pagan quest by this culture to achieve immortality through the prolongation of life or the replication of one&#039;s genes--NO MATTER WHAT THE COST--I believe I&#039;ll treat all this palaver about &quot;stem cell research&quot; as the hypocrisy it is.&lt;/b&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Question: Where do the embryos for &#8220;stem cell research&#8221; come from? Is anybody&#8211;are the government?&#8211;producing foetuses for the explicit purpose of harvesting their organs for stem-cell research?</p>
<p>Possible Answer: Almost all the stem cells for research come from the zygotes produced in &#8220;fertility clinics.&#8221; Whenever a rich, privileged woman and her husband, hell-bent and determined not to adopt, but to have something with their own DNA in it, pay $10-20,000.OO to some medical moral idiot for the production of 20-40 zygotes in a petri dish, ONLY ONE IS CHOSEN FOR &#8220;IMPLANTATION.&#8221;</p>
<p>Question: Where do the other zygotes go?</p>
<p>Possible&#8211;no, LIKELY&#8211;Answer: To the &#8220;reserch labs.&#8221; SOLD to them, I might add.</p>
<p>Question: Have you ever heard the Catholic Church offer to &#8220;funeralize&#8221; all those zygotes&#8211;or even the embryos, after they been &#8220;implanted&#8221;?</p>
<p>Answer: Are you kidding? Spend money on THAT?</p>
<p>Question: Why does the &#8220;moral responsibility&#8221; for stem-cell research always fall upon politicians and legislators, in the sermonizing of Holy Mother Church in America?</p>
<p>Answer: They&#8217;re a much easier target than the depraved&#8211;and often CATHOLIC&#8211;American upper middle classes and their medical friends. Who wants to hear a sermon in church about the moral responsibility to adopt and forsake the &#8220;wonders of medical science&#8221; in the interest of preserving the &#8220;whole cloth&#8221; of life?</p>
<p><b>Until the Catholic Church targets the real source of this moral degeneracy, which is the pagan quest by this culture to achieve immortality through the prolongation of life or the replication of one&#8217;s genes&#8211;NO MATTER WHAT THE COST&#8211;I believe I&#8217;ll treat all this palaver about &#8220;stem cell research&#8221; as the hypocrisy it is.</b></p>
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		<title>By: David Nickol</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/09/29/mccain-and-obama-the-same-on-escr/#comment-38595</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Nickol]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Sep 2008 02:34:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=4344#comment-38595</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jeremy,

But the same principles underlie Catholic opposition to both abortion and stem-cell research. Are pro-life Catholics willing to make a political compromise on abortion? I don&#039;t think so. But I don&#039;t recall a firestorm over Bush&#039;s stem-cell compromise.

Perhaps the reason is, as Michael Sandel says in his book &lt;i&gt;The Case Against Perfection,&lt;/i&gt; that people don&#039;t believe fertilized eggs and very early embryos are really human beings. Some people &lt;i&gt;claim&lt;/i&gt; to believe it, but if they really did, they would be trying to shut down fertility clinics with the same fervor as they are trying to criminalize abortion.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeremy,</p>
<p>But the same principles underlie Catholic opposition to both abortion and stem-cell research. Are pro-life Catholics willing to make a political compromise on abortion? I don&#8217;t think so. But I don&#8217;t recall a firestorm over Bush&#8217;s stem-cell compromise.</p>
<p>Perhaps the reason is, as Michael Sandel says in his book <i>The Case Against Perfection,</i> that people don&#8217;t believe fertilized eggs and very early embryos are really human beings. Some people <i>claim</i> to believe it, but if they really did, they would be trying to shut down fertility clinics with the same fervor as they are trying to criminalize abortion.</p>
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		<title>By: jeremy</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/09/29/mccain-and-obama-the-same-on-escr/#comment-38584</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jeremy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Sep 2008 00:52:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=4344#comment-38584</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Indeed, there was a political compromise, not the first, and not the last.  I don&#039;t think anybody here would want to say that the compromise was optimal.  Fortunately with the recent rapid advances of adult stem cell research and treatments, I am hopeful that we can soon put the ESCR debate to bed.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Indeed, there was a political compromise, not the first, and not the last.  I don&#8217;t think anybody here would want to say that the compromise was optimal.  Fortunately with the recent rapid advances of adult stem cell research and treatments, I am hopeful that we can soon put the ESCR debate to bed.</p>
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		<title>By: David Nickol</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/09/29/mccain-and-obama-the-same-on-escr/#comment-38574</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Nickol]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2008 22:11:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=4344#comment-38574</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;The public-private distinction is crucial, for this was how Bush made his judgment back in 2000. &lt;/i&gt;

I remember someone saying that Bush&#039;s compromise on stem-cell research could be regarded as Solomonic if Solomon had actually cut the baby in half.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/04/08/embryo_ethics/?page=1&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Michael Sandel&lt;/a&gt;, has pointed out how strange it is to deem something morally offensive and deny it public funding while letting it continue in the private sector:

&lt;blockquote&gt;A further reason to be skeptical of the notion that blastocysts are persons is to notice that many who invoke it do not embrace its full implications. President Bush is a case in point. In 2001, he announced a policy that restricted federal funding to already existing stem cell lines, so that no taxpayer funds would encourage or support the destruction of embryos. And in 2006, he vetoed a bill that would have funded new embryonic stem cell research, saying that he did not want to support &quot;the taking of innocent human life.&quot;

But it is a striking feature of the president&#039;s position that, while restricting the funding of embryonic stem cell research, he has made no effort to ban it. To adapt a slogan from the Clinton administration, the Bush policy might be summarized as &quot;don&#039;t fund, don&#039;t ban.&quot; But this policy is at odds with the notion that embryos are human beings.

If harvesting stem cells from a blastocyst were truly on a par with harvesting organs from a baby, then the morally responsible policy would be to ban it, not merely deny it federal funding. If some doctors made a practice of killing children to get organs for transplantation, no one would take the position that the infanticide should be ineligible for federal funding but allowed to continue in the private sector. In fact, if we were persuaded that embryonic stem cell research were tantamount to infanticide, we would not only ban it but treat it as a grisly form of murder and subject scientists who performed it to criminal punishment.&lt;/blockquote&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>The public-private distinction is crucial, for this was how Bush made his judgment back in 2000. </i></p>
<p>I remember someone saying that Bush&#8217;s compromise on stem-cell research could be regarded as Solomonic if Solomon had actually cut the baby in half.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/04/08/embryo_ethics/?page=1" rel="nofollow">Michael Sandel</a>, has pointed out how strange it is to deem something morally offensive and deny it public funding while letting it continue in the private sector:</p>
<blockquote><p>A further reason to be skeptical of the notion that blastocysts are persons is to notice that many who invoke it do not embrace its full implications. President Bush is a case in point. In 2001, he announced a policy that restricted federal funding to already existing stem cell lines, so that no taxpayer funds would encourage or support the destruction of embryos. And in 2006, he vetoed a bill that would have funded new embryonic stem cell research, saying that he did not want to support &#8220;the taking of innocent human life.&#8221;</p>
<p>But it is a striking feature of the president&#8217;s position that, while restricting the funding of embryonic stem cell research, he has made no effort to ban it. To adapt a slogan from the Clinton administration, the Bush policy might be summarized as &#8220;don&#8217;t fund, don&#8217;t ban.&#8221; But this policy is at odds with the notion that embryos are human beings.</p>
<p>If harvesting stem cells from a blastocyst were truly on a par with harvesting organs from a baby, then the morally responsible policy would be to ban it, not merely deny it federal funding. If some doctors made a practice of killing children to get organs for transplantation, no one would take the position that the infanticide should be ineligible for federal funding but allowed to continue in the private sector. In fact, if we were persuaded that embryonic stem cell research were tantamount to infanticide, we would not only ban it but treat it as a grisly form of murder and subject scientists who performed it to criminal punishment.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: jeremy</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/09/29/mccain-and-obama-the-same-on-escr/#comment-38573</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jeremy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2008 22:01:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=4344#comment-38573</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Just a thought - at their heart, both abortion and fertility clinics affirm the parent-child bond.  Abortion by severing that bond, and fertility clinics by trying to achieve that bond.  I think one of the reasons that ESCR strikes us as intrinsicly wrong above and beyond fertility clinics is that ESCR denies the parent-child bond.  Indeed, ESCR treats the child as a biological entity to be harvested.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just a thought &#8211; at their heart, both abortion and fertility clinics affirm the parent-child bond.  Abortion by severing that bond, and fertility clinics by trying to achieve that bond.  I think one of the reasons that ESCR strikes us as intrinsicly wrong above and beyond fertility clinics is that ESCR denies the parent-child bond.  Indeed, ESCR treats the child as a biological entity to be harvested.</p>
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		<title>By: jeremy</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/09/29/mccain-and-obama-the-same-on-escr/#comment-38572</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jeremy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2008 21:56:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=4344#comment-38572</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You never said why the private/public distinction was important for ESCR, or how that would affect the two candidates positions.  You did introduce fertility clinics, to which I whole heartedly support the USCCB statement on the matter.  However, since the two major parties don&#039;t consider this a political issue, there isn&#039;t much that can be done about it during this election.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You never said why the private/public distinction was important for ESCR, or how that would affect the two candidates positions.  You did introduce fertility clinics, to which I whole heartedly support the USCCB statement on the matter.  However, since the two major parties don&#8217;t consider this a political issue, there isn&#8217;t much that can be done about it during this election.</p>
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		<title>By: Morning's Minion</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/09/29/mccain-and-obama-the-same-on-escr/#comment-38570</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Morning's Minion]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2008 21:42:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=4344#comment-38570</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The public-private distinction is crucial, for this was how Bush made his judgment back in 2000. His policy was not to publicly fund the destruction of human embryos, but it was permissible to use such funds to &quot;support research on stem cells obtained by the privately funded destruction of &quot;excess&quot; embryos from fertility clinic.&quot; the USCCB opposed this (http://www.nccbuscc.org/prolife/issues/bioethic/fact801.htm)

There are a number of moral issues, here, of course. How widespread is the privately-funded destruction of embryos? As the UCSSB notes: &quot;the fact that the embryos were destroyed with private funds does not solve the moral problem.&quot; Moreover: &quot;research on cell lines already established by destroying human embryos does not avoid moral complicity in such destruction.&quot;

And what about thw wanton destruction of embryos in fertility clinics? Here&#039;s Michael Kinsley:

&quot;if embryos are human beings, the routine practices of fertility clinics are far worse—both in numbers and in criminal intent—than stem-cell research. And yet no one objects, or objects very loudly. President Bush actually praised the work of fertility clinics in his first speech announcing restrictions on stem cells.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The public-private distinction is crucial, for this was how Bush made his judgment back in 2000. His policy was not to publicly fund the destruction of human embryos, but it was permissible to use such funds to &#8220;support research on stem cells obtained by the privately funded destruction of &#8220;excess&#8221; embryos from fertility clinic.&#8221; the USCCB opposed this (<a href="http://www.nccbuscc.org/prolife/issues/bioethic/fact801.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.nccbuscc.org/prolife/issues/bioethic/fact801.htm</a>)</p>
<p>There are a number of moral issues, here, of course. How widespread is the privately-funded destruction of embryos? As the UCSSB notes: &#8220;the fact that the embryos were destroyed with private funds does not solve the moral problem.&#8221; Moreover: &#8220;research on cell lines already established by destroying human embryos does not avoid moral complicity in such destruction.&#8221;</p>
<p>And what about thw wanton destruction of embryos in fertility clinics? Here&#8217;s Michael Kinsley:</p>
<p>&#8220;if embryos are human beings, the routine practices of fertility clinics are far worse—both in numbers and in criminal intent—than stem-cell research. And yet no one objects, or objects very loudly. President Bush actually praised the work of fertility clinics in his first speech announcing restrictions on stem cells.&#8221;</p>
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