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	<title>Comments on: When Gay Rights and Religious Liberties Clash</title>
	<atom:link href="http://vox-nova.com/2008/06/16/when-gay-rights-and-religious-liberties-clash/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/06/16/when-gay-rights-and-religious-liberties-clash/</link>
	<description>Catholic perspectives on culture, society, and politics</description>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/06/16/when-gay-rights-and-religious-liberties-clash/#comment-25557</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 18:02:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=2700#comment-25557</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Since when has the right to discriminate existed? Is this what some people refer to as &quot;religious liberties&quot;? Proponents of slavery and segregation leaned heavily on religion to justify their actions. It is high time for society to reject the use of religion as a vehicle for bigotry.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since when has the right to discriminate existed? Is this what some people refer to as &#8220;religious liberties&#8221;? Proponents of slavery and segregation leaned heavily on religion to justify their actions. It is high time for society to reject the use of religion as a vehicle for bigotry.</p>
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		<title>By: Gerald Augustinus</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/06/16/when-gay-rights-and-religious-liberties-clash/#comment-24989</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gerald Augustinus]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jun 2008 04:09:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=2700#comment-24989</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[^5 digby - we just can&#039;t talk about the USA :-P]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>^5 digby &#8211; we just can&#8217;t talk about the USA :-P</p>
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		<title>By: jonathanjones02</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/06/16/when-gay-rights-and-religious-liberties-clash/#comment-24986</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jonathanjones02]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jun 2008 02:14:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=2700#comment-24986</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There&#039;s plenty of modern (post-Enlightenment) conservative thinkers who argue as much, and would also disagree furiously with statists/socialists about size, scope, and function, all of it particular to circumstance. I&#039;ll consider Burke, the father of most of it, sometime this week (and arguments from circumstance, leaving open the door for shaping behavior, is why Richard Weaver and other conservatives argued the minority position, which is that Burke was not a conservative). What unites them all is approach, sentiment, anti-utopianism, and anti-ideology. 

What libertarians and conservatives agree on, and what all conservatives agree on, is that there should be no state organized &quot;unity&quot;, which was the calling card of progressivism (many, many, many of whom admired and studied Mussolini&#039;s efforts for such unity), socialism, and the totalitarian socialisms, national and international (Nazism and Communism, who appealed to very similar constituencies). ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s plenty of modern (post-Enlightenment) conservative thinkers who argue as much, and would also disagree furiously with statists/socialists about size, scope, and function, all of it particular to circumstance. I&#8217;ll consider Burke, the father of most of it, sometime this week (and arguments from circumstance, leaving open the door for shaping behavior, is why Richard Weaver and other conservatives argued the minority position, which is that Burke was not a conservative). What unites them all is approach, sentiment, anti-utopianism, and anti-ideology. </p>
<p>What libertarians and conservatives agree on, and what all conservatives agree on, is that there should be no state organized &#8220;unity&#8221;, which was the calling card of progressivism (many, many, many of whom admired and studied Mussolini&#8217;s efforts for such unity), socialism, and the totalitarian socialisms, national and international (Nazism and Communism, who appealed to very similar constituencies).</p>
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		<title>By: Michael J. Iafrate</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/06/16/when-gay-rights-and-religious-liberties-clash/#comment-24985</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael J. Iafrate]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jun 2008 01:55:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=2700#comment-24985</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;I&gt;Conservatism varies by country and circumstance. I have an upcoming post on Edmund Burke that explains why, and why I agree with him.&lt;/I&gt;

If you believe the state&#039;s role is to &quot;shape behavior&quot; then &#039;conservatism&#039; probably isn&#039;t the term you would want to use.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Conservatism varies by country and circumstance. I have an upcoming post on Edmund Burke that explains why, and why I agree with him.</i></p>
<p>If you believe the state&#8217;s role is to &#8220;shape behavior&#8221; then &#8216;conservatism&#8217; probably isn&#8217;t the term you would want to use.</p>
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		<title>By: digbydolben</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/06/16/when-gay-rights-and-religious-liberties-clash/#comment-24984</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[digbydolben]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jun 2008 01:13:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=2700#comment-24984</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s nice to be able to agree with Gerald Augustinus regarding every last thing he&#039;s written on this thread!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s nice to be able to agree with Gerald Augustinus regarding every last thing he&#8217;s written on this thread!</p>
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		<title>By: jonathanjones02</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/06/16/when-gay-rights-and-religious-liberties-clash/#comment-24973</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jonathanjones02]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 22:28:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=2700#comment-24973</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;That’s funny, I thought the clearly stated position of conservatives (you used the term, not me) on the state was only to protect our borders and to make sure no one interferes with the “free” market, not to “shape behavior.” That’s creepy.&quot;

Conservatism varies by country and circumstance. I have an upcoming post on Edmund Burke that explains why, and why I agree with him.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;That’s funny, I thought the clearly stated position of conservatives (you used the term, not me) on the state was only to protect our borders and to make sure no one interferes with the “free” market, not to “shape behavior.” That’s creepy.&#8221;</p>
<p>Conservatism varies by country and circumstance. I have an upcoming post on Edmund Burke that explains why, and why I agree with him.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael J. Iafrate</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/06/16/when-gay-rights-and-religious-liberties-clash/#comment-24951</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael J. Iafrate]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 21:23:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=2700#comment-24951</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;I&gt;By participatory government, do you mean democracy on a small scale? In that case, the majority of people rule.&lt;/I&gt;

This is, of course, not the topic of this thread, but yes I would say democracy on a small scale, but understood as real participatory democracy -- not simply electoral politics -- that would ideally lean more toward consensus and less toward &quot;majority rule.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>By participatory government, do you mean democracy on a small scale? In that case, the majority of people rule.</i></p>
<p>This is, of course, not the topic of this thread, but yes I would say democracy on a small scale, but understood as real participatory democracy &#8212; not simply electoral politics &#8212; that would ideally lean more toward consensus and less toward &#8220;majority rule.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: David Nickol</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/06/16/when-gay-rights-and-religious-liberties-clash/#comment-24943</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Nickol]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 21:02:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=2700#comment-24943</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;Of course I wouldn’t treat a realtive in a same sex relationship the same as I would treat one who was married.&lt;/i&gt;

Ben,

Would you go to your gay relative&#039;s home for dinner, or would visiting a shared home be too much like acceptance of that relative&#039;s relationship?

I know a lot of parents help their newly married children out financially with loans or gifts (and sometimes long after they are newly married). Would it be wrong of parents of children in same-sex relationships to help with rent or groceries? Should parents of college-age gay children pay for them to go away to college, or should they keep them at home and try to control their behavior?

Would there be any difference in the way you would treat a gay relative in a same-sex relationship and a relative who was divorced and remarried outside the Church?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Of course I wouldn’t treat a realtive in a same sex relationship the same as I would treat one who was married.</i></p>
<p>Ben,</p>
<p>Would you go to your gay relative&#8217;s home for dinner, or would visiting a shared home be too much like acceptance of that relative&#8217;s relationship?</p>
<p>I know a lot of parents help their newly married children out financially with loans or gifts (and sometimes long after they are newly married). Would it be wrong of parents of children in same-sex relationships to help with rent or groceries? Should parents of college-age gay children pay for them to go away to college, or should they keep them at home and try to control their behavior?</p>
<p>Would there be any difference in the way you would treat a gay relative in a same-sex relationship and a relative who was divorced and remarried outside the Church?</p>
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		<title>By: Saul</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/06/16/when-gay-rights-and-religious-liberties-clash/#comment-24941</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Saul]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 21:00:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=2700#comment-24941</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A couple of points:

0. Empathy, please: Okay, lots of people don&#039;t empathize with us gay folk. That&#039;s no reason not to empathize with those of us with orthodox Christian beliefs on sexuality. Quite the opposite, really. And genuine empathy, please, not you&#039;re just ignorant and fearful.

1. &#039;Discrimination is all the same&#039;: Thankfully, Blackadder&#039;s new post has dealt with this. I don&#039;t think Katerina is compelled by law or morality to photograph a pro-war rally. I would urge everyone to think about things they wouldn&#039;t photograph. These would be instances of discrimination, some just, perhaps some unjust.

2. Christian teaching on homosexuality = homophobia: Really, on blogs such as Vox Nova, we should be past this phase and into more mature discussion. Please read the writings by folks such as Eve Tushnet, John Heard, and Ron Belgau.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A couple of points:</p>
<p>0. Empathy, please: Okay, lots of people don&#8217;t empathize with us gay folk. That&#8217;s no reason not to empathize with those of us with orthodox Christian beliefs on sexuality. Quite the opposite, really. And genuine empathy, please, not you&#8217;re just ignorant and fearful.</p>
<p>1. &#8216;Discrimination is all the same&#8217;: Thankfully, Blackadder&#8217;s new post has dealt with this. I don&#8217;t think Katerina is compelled by law or morality to photograph a pro-war rally. I would urge everyone to think about things they wouldn&#8217;t photograph. These would be instances of discrimination, some just, perhaps some unjust.</p>
<p>2. Christian teaching on homosexuality = homophobia: Really, on blogs such as Vox Nova, we should be past this phase and into more mature discussion. Please read the writings by folks such as Eve Tushnet, John Heard, and Ron Belgau.</p>
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		<title>By: Gerald Augustinus</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/06/16/when-gay-rights-and-religious-liberties-clash/#comment-24926</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gerald Augustinus]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 20:27:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=2700#comment-24926</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, Mark, I am sure fetish stores carry them. There used to be anti-masturbatory devices for boys - torture devices really. About a hundred years ago they were advertised in regular magazines. Along with the fairy tale that one goes blind from masturbating. On the other hand, I did need contacts at an early age :P]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, Mark, I am sure fetish stores carry them. There used to be anti-masturbatory devices for boys &#8211; torture devices really. About a hundred years ago they were advertised in regular magazines. Along with the fairy tale that one goes blind from masturbating. On the other hand, I did need contacts at an early age :P</p>
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		<title>By: Zach</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/06/16/when-gay-rights-and-religious-liberties-clash/#comment-24923</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zach]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 20:14:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=2700#comment-24923</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[By participatory government, do you mean democracy on a small scale?  In that case, the majority of people rule.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By participatory government, do you mean democracy on a small scale?  In that case, the majority of people rule.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark DeFrancisis</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/06/16/when-gay-rights-and-religious-liberties-clash/#comment-24904</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark DeFrancisis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 19:24:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=2700#comment-24904</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Gerald,

I have another long drive. Thank your for many outbursts of laughter in the way.

Do they make male chastity belts, by the way?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gerald,</p>
<p>I have another long drive. Thank your for many outbursts of laughter in the way.</p>
<p>Do they make male chastity belts, by the way?</p>
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