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	<title>Comments on: Ireland, the Lisbon Treaty, and the Church</title>
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	<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/06/14/ireland-the-lisbon-treaty-and-the-church/</link>
	<description>Catholic perspectives on culture, society, and politics</description>
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		<title>By: Kevin</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/06/14/ireland-the-lisbon-treaty-and-the-church/#comment-33323</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kevin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2008 15:30:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=2690#comment-33323</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Irish Cardinal takes ain at the E.U.;

&quot;Without respect for its Christian memory and soul, I believe it is possible to anticipate continuing difficulties for the European project. These will emerge not only in economic terms but in terms of social cohesion and the continued growth of a dangerous individualism that does not care about God or about what the future might have in store.&quot; http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/0825/1219616651409.html]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Irish Cardinal takes ain at the E.U.;</p>
<p>&#8220;Without respect for its Christian memory and soul, I believe it is possible to anticipate continuing difficulties for the European project. These will emerge not only in economic terms but in terms of social cohesion and the continued growth of a dangerous individualism that does not care about God or about what the future might have in store.&#8221; <a href="http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/0825/1219616651409.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/0825/1219616651409.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Spirit of Vatican II</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/06/14/ireland-the-lisbon-treaty-and-the-church/#comment-30985</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Spirit of Vatican II]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Aug 2008 12:29:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=2690#comment-30985</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The Czech Prime Minister Mirek Topolanek said that his country will not put the brakes on the ratification process of the EU&#039;s Lisbon treaty.

The Irish Government will have to make the same declaration.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Czech Prime Minister Mirek Topolanek said that his country will not put the brakes on the ratification process of the EU&#8217;s Lisbon treaty.</p>
<p>The Irish Government will have to make the same declaration.</p>
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		<title>By: Spirit of Vatican II</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/06/14/ireland-the-lisbon-treaty-and-the-church/#comment-30984</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Spirit of Vatican II]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Aug 2008 12:26:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=2690#comment-30984</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I had a letter in The Irish Times on this the other day:

Madam,
  I welcome Stephen Collins&#039;s call for a differentiated interpretation of the recent Lisbon vote (Opinion, August 2). It is apparent that the rejection of Lisbon is going to have gravely deleterious consequences for the national interest. The Government cannot simply ratify blindly a decision that exposes our nation to a future of poverty, powerlessness and isolation. 
   Indeed, this is a case where a responsible Government must sacrifice itself, banking on the future gratitude of the people. That the Irish people wish to be part of the European Union has been made clear in a whole series of decisions over the years and in the immense investment we have made in building up the Union. To overthrow all this on the basis of one muddled referendum (in which the Yes side was financially hamstrung while the No side drew on abundant foreign funds) would be a betrayal of the democratic will of Irish citizens for decades. 
                      Yours,
                             (Rev.) Joseph S. O&#039;Leary, DD

I added this clarification today:

Madam,
   I agree that it would set a dangerous precedent if a Government were simply to overrule a referendum result. That is why I call for a differentiated interpretation.
   If a renegotiation of Lisbon is impossible and if the price of leaving the Lisbon process is falling far behind in Europe or leaving the EU altogether, then the question must be asked: Is this really what the Irish people asked for in the referendum? That would be in total contradiction with their previous attitude to Europe.
   The referendum could be interpreted without an excess of legerdemain as saying: we would like a more ideal treaty than Lisbon, but should this be impossible we want to stay in the EU all the same.
     Yours,
          Joseph S. O&#039;Leary

American money, aimed at dividing Europe, and the retrograde politicking of the ex-terrrorist Sinn Fein are among the forces that made for this botched referendum.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had a letter in The Irish Times on this the other day:</p>
<p>Madam,<br />
  I welcome Stephen Collins&#8217;s call for a differentiated interpretation of the recent Lisbon vote (Opinion, August 2). It is apparent that the rejection of Lisbon is going to have gravely deleterious consequences for the national interest. The Government cannot simply ratify blindly a decision that exposes our nation to a future of poverty, powerlessness and isolation.<br />
   Indeed, this is a case where a responsible Government must sacrifice itself, banking on the future gratitude of the people. That the Irish people wish to be part of the European Union has been made clear in a whole series of decisions over the years and in the immense investment we have made in building up the Union. To overthrow all this on the basis of one muddled referendum (in which the Yes side was financially hamstrung while the No side drew on abundant foreign funds) would be a betrayal of the democratic will of Irish citizens for decades.<br />
                      Yours,<br />
                             (Rev.) Joseph S. O&#8217;Leary, DD</p>
<p>I added this clarification today:</p>
<p>Madam,<br />
   I agree that it would set a dangerous precedent if a Government were simply to overrule a referendum result. That is why I call for a differentiated interpretation.<br />
   If a renegotiation of Lisbon is impossible and if the price of leaving the Lisbon process is falling far behind in Europe or leaving the EU altogether, then the question must be asked: Is this really what the Irish people asked for in the referendum? That would be in total contradiction with their previous attitude to Europe.<br />
   The referendum could be interpreted without an excess of legerdemain as saying: we would like a more ideal treaty than Lisbon, but should this be impossible we want to stay in the EU all the same.<br />
     Yours,<br />
          Joseph S. O&#8217;Leary</p>
<p>American money, aimed at dividing Europe, and the retrograde politicking of the ex-terrrorist Sinn Fein are among the forces that made for this botched referendum.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/06/14/ireland-the-lisbon-treaty-and-the-church/#comment-26101</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kevin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jun 2008 02:26:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=2690#comment-26101</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A sober realization and great news for the free and sovereign peoples of Europe:

[The Lisbon treaty] cannot come into force. The EU cannot ignore its own rules. The Lisbon Treaty has been roundly and democratically rejected by Ireland, and it therefore cannot come into force. Any attempt to ignore this fact and make recourse to pressure and political manipulation to move the treaty forward would have disastrous consequences for Europe. […] Since the treaty must unanimously be ratified of all the member states of the EU and one of them has already rejected it, the final result of the ratification will be the same. With or without the Czech vote, the Treaty of Lisbon will not be ratified.
Vaclav Klaus
President of the Czech Republic

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/3366]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A sober realization and great news for the free and sovereign peoples of Europe:</p>
<p>[The Lisbon treaty] cannot come into force. The EU cannot ignore its own rules. The Lisbon Treaty has been roundly and democratically rejected by Ireland, and it therefore cannot come into force. Any attempt to ignore this fact and make recourse to pressure and political manipulation to move the treaty forward would have disastrous consequences for Europe. […] Since the treaty must unanimously be ratified of all the member states of the EU and one of them has already rejected it, the final result of the ratification will be the same. With or without the Czech vote, the Treaty of Lisbon will not be ratified.<br />
Vaclav Klaus<br />
President of the Czech Republic</p>
<p><a href="http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/3366" rel="nofollow">http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/3366</a></p>
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		<title>By: joseph</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/06/14/ireland-the-lisbon-treaty-and-the-church/#comment-25067</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[joseph]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jun 2008 21:09:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=2690#comment-25067</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Don&#039;t forget to factor in the good work of Libertas as you are scrambling to find excuses why the secular machine failed to successfully brainwash the people of Ireland with their talk of &quot;democracy&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#8217;t forget to factor in the good work of Libertas as you are scrambling to find excuses why the secular machine failed to successfully brainwash the people of Ireland with their talk of &#8220;democracy&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: joseph</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/06/14/ireland-the-lisbon-treaty-and-the-church/#comment-25053</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[joseph]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jun 2008 19:40:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=2690#comment-25053</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[One more thing, since this is supposed to be a Catholic blog.  MM, like all of the flabergasted secularist EU empirialists, seems to have left out the possibility that God had a hand in this.

The &quot;yes&quot; campaign was a disaster... FF fell asleep at the wheel... Bertie&#039;s scandal came at an inopportune time... Irish people are stupid... yadda yadda yadda...

My goodness, it couldn&#039;t have been God who permitted all of these things to happen, could it?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One more thing, since this is supposed to be a Catholic blog.  MM, like all of the flabergasted secularist EU empirialists, seems to have left out the possibility that God had a hand in this.</p>
<p>The &#8220;yes&#8221; campaign was a disaster&#8230; FF fell asleep at the wheel&#8230; Bertie&#8217;s scandal came at an inopportune time&#8230; Irish people are stupid&#8230; yadda yadda yadda&#8230;</p>
<p>My goodness, it couldn&#8217;t have been God who permitted all of these things to happen, could it?</p>
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		<title>By: joseph</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/06/14/ireland-the-lisbon-treaty-and-the-church/#comment-25052</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[joseph]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jun 2008 19:26:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=2690#comment-25052</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Wow.  Morning Minion, I&#039;m extremely offended.  The Irish people are stupid because they didn&#039;t vote according to how you would have voted?  Once again you&#039;ve proven to be a Catholic dissenter with a liberal bent so radical that you can kiss the soles of your feet.  Disgusting.  The liberals on this site never cease to amaze me.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow.  Morning Minion, I&#8217;m extremely offended.  The Irish people are stupid because they didn&#8217;t vote according to how you would have voted?  Once again you&#8217;ve proven to be a Catholic dissenter with a liberal bent so radical that you can kiss the soles of your feet.  Disgusting.  The liberals on this site never cease to amaze me.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/06/14/ireland-the-lisbon-treaty-and-the-church/#comment-24907</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kevin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 19:36:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=2690#comment-24907</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;No “pro-lifer” torpedoed this; the bishops pointed out that it was not a pro-life issue. 

Really? Every pre and post referendum poll and commentary showed the prolife community loathed the idea of abortion being rammed down their throats by the bloody hands of Brussels&#039; autocrats. Do you read the Spectator, Mail or Guardian. Each is either hailing or blaming the prolifers in the pews for their role in smiting Moloch.

&quot;I see dissenting from the teaching of the bishops extends beyond the US.&quot;

Please provide the &quot;teaching&quot; . I&#039;ve enclosed their Pastoral Letter. Read it. Then furnish proof of their endorsement; http://www.catholiccommunications.ie/lisbon08/lisbon08-pressrelease.htm
Take all the time you need.

I am not an Americanist, ardent or otherwise, but your careless disregard for the facts,  suggests your support for the treaty is little more than a juvenile reaction to your domestic opponents. Grow up. The last thing the diverse peoples of Europe need is to fall under an explicitly anti-Christian, anti-democratic regime simply to satisfy your psychic need for debating points. 

Betraying the memories of Adenaur and Mauriac by falsely claiming this project , which again, disavows their faith, as somehow their handiwork is shameful.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;No “pro-lifer” torpedoed this; the bishops pointed out that it was not a pro-life issue. </p>
<p>Really? Every pre and post referendum poll and commentary showed the prolife community loathed the idea of abortion being rammed down their throats by the bloody hands of Brussels&#8217; autocrats. Do you read the Spectator, Mail or Guardian. Each is either hailing or blaming the prolifers in the pews for their role in smiting Moloch.</p>
<p>&#8220;I see dissenting from the teaching of the bishops extends beyond the US.&#8221;</p>
<p>Please provide the &#8220;teaching&#8221; . I&#8217;ve enclosed their Pastoral Letter. Read it. Then furnish proof of their endorsement; <a href="http://www.catholiccommunications.ie/lisbon08/lisbon08-pressrelease.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.catholiccommunications.ie/lisbon08/lisbon08-pressrelease.htm</a><br />
Take all the time you need.</p>
<p>I am not an Americanist, ardent or otherwise, but your careless disregard for the facts,  suggests your support for the treaty is little more than a juvenile reaction to your domestic opponents. Grow up. The last thing the diverse peoples of Europe need is to fall under an explicitly anti-Christian, anti-democratic regime simply to satisfy your psychic need for debating points. </p>
<p>Betraying the memories of Adenaur and Mauriac by falsely claiming this project , which again, disavows their faith, as somehow their handiwork is shameful.</p>
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		<title>By: Dale Price</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/06/14/ireland-the-lisbon-treaty-and-the-church/#comment-24870</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dale Price]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 17:19:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=2690#comment-24870</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In any other endeavor, if someone presented the same proposal to three varied and diverse groups over a four year period and was soundly rejected after each time, the smart thing would be to engage in soul-searching, wondering if there were perhaps sensible grounds for rejection that needed to be addressed.  

Instead, MM scapegoats, engages in musings about conspiracies and wonders about the terminal stupidity of the governed, thus coming to the conclusion that there is no need for their consent on such weighty matters beyond their benighted ken.  Good stuff--it was this rant that made me realize Lisbon was a bad idea worthy of rejection.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In any other endeavor, if someone presented the same proposal to three varied and diverse groups over a four year period and was soundly rejected after each time, the smart thing would be to engage in soul-searching, wondering if there were perhaps sensible grounds for rejection that needed to be addressed.  </p>
<p>Instead, MM scapegoats, engages in musings about conspiracies and wonders about the terminal stupidity of the governed, thus coming to the conclusion that there is no need for their consent on such weighty matters beyond their benighted ken.  Good stuff&#8211;it was this rant that made me realize Lisbon was a bad idea worthy of rejection.</p>
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		<title>By: Morning's Minion</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/06/14/ireland-the-lisbon-treaty-and-the-church/#comment-24776</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Morning's Minion]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 03:14:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=2690#comment-24776</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[No &quot;pro-lifer&quot; torpedoed this; the bishops pointed out that it was not a pro-life issue. I see dissenting from the teaching of the bishops extends beyond the US. 

I come back to my basic point: so many of those who detest the attempts to strengthen European integration are the most ardent Americanists. I would take them more seriously if they were calling for the dismantling of the federal government and military. 

And what is this fetish for decision by plebiscite? When did that become part of the natural law? I would remind you that the re-election of George Bush was achieved by an absolute majority of voters-- Europeans were then calling 54 million Americans stupid, if I remember.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No &#8220;pro-lifer&#8221; torpedoed this; the bishops pointed out that it was not a pro-life issue. I see dissenting from the teaching of the bishops extends beyond the US. </p>
<p>I come back to my basic point: so many of those who detest the attempts to strengthen European integration are the most ardent Americanists. I would take them more seriously if they were calling for the dismantling of the federal government and military. </p>
<p>And what is this fetish for decision by plebiscite? When did that become part of the natural law? I would remind you that the re-election of George Bush was achieved by an absolute majority of voters&#8211; Europeans were then calling 54 million Americans stupid, if I remember.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/06/14/ireland-the-lisbon-treaty-and-the-church/#comment-24753</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kevin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 01:03:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=2690#comment-24753</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;I believe there would be a substantial majority for Lisbon.&quot;

Sure you do. 

The project is 0 for 3 at the polls, and the last thing the EUcrats would want is a continent-wide defeat. Hence, their frantic efforts to deprive the people of Europe the right to self-determination.

As an aside, the Bishops did not endorse the Lisbon Treaty and reading their their 5 page Statement, one can easily interpret their reminder that Europe must nourish it&#039;s Christian roots, as an argument for rejection. 

God Bless the Irish and the pro-lifers who torpedoed this monster.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I believe there would be a substantial majority for Lisbon.&#8221;</p>
<p>Sure you do. </p>
<p>The project is 0 for 3 at the polls, and the last thing the EUcrats would want is a continent-wide defeat. Hence, their frantic efforts to deprive the people of Europe the right to self-determination.</p>
<p>As an aside, the Bishops did not endorse the Lisbon Treaty and reading their their 5 page Statement, one can easily interpret their reminder that Europe must nourish it&#8217;s Christian roots, as an argument for rejection. </p>
<p>God Bless the Irish and the pro-lifers who torpedoed this monster.</p>
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		<title>By: Morning's Minion</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/06/14/ireland-the-lisbon-treaty-and-the-church/#comment-24699</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Morning's Minion]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 19:35:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=2690#comment-24699</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Darwin, it is true that the the most educated and successful people are often driven to public service in places like France and Belgium. They may well be seen as an &quot;elite&quot; and I make no apologies for that. In the US, the &quot;elites&quot; tend more toawrd the private sector, but they are elites nonetheless-- just not as visible. 

The only number that should count in an EU-wide poll. Has there been such an opinion poll? I believe there would be a substantial majority for Lisbon. Why should countries have a veto?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Darwin, it is true that the the most educated and successful people are often driven to public service in places like France and Belgium. They may well be seen as an &#8220;elite&#8221; and I make no apologies for that. In the US, the &#8220;elites&#8221; tend more toawrd the private sector, but they are elites nonetheless&#8211; just not as visible. </p>
<p>The only number that should count in an EU-wide poll. Has there been such an opinion poll? I believe there would be a substantial majority for Lisbon. Why should countries have a veto?</p>
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