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8 Comments
  1. June 12, 2008 3:34 pm

    Thank you, Mike. The overlap between the first excerpt and subsidarity are clearly apparent. But what should be done about states that do a pretty good job providing social welfare. Western Europe for example?

  2. June 12, 2008 3:42 pm

    This amounts to saying that we should fight the state by making the state super-massive and powerful.

    No thanks!

  3. TeutonicTim permalink
    June 12, 2008 4:10 pm

    Michael J. – I agree with you, and your quoted article. I just come to a different conclusion. It does not follow as the only conclusions that either:

    1. non-state private welfare means “corporations” or for profit groups.
    2. Only government can fill the void left after eliminating those “corporations” or for profit groups.

    I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: It is exactly things like this that should be handled by the “Church”, meaning Christians, Catholics, and affiliated charities. That to me is more “Catholic” than choosing the “state” simply because it is monolithic.

  4. June 12, 2008 4:15 pm

    Zach – Read it again. Pay attention to the actual words and the ideas that they form. Where does it say that “we” should make the state “super-massive” and “powerful”? It says that the anti-statism of the Right (the extreme liberals, libertarians, etc.) is not the answer.

    Adam – Not sure. What do you think?

  5. Michael Enright permalink
    June 12, 2008 6:13 pm

    Michael–

    As someone who has moved from libertarianism and “anarcho-capitalism” to mutualism and voluntary socialism, I have to say I don’t think that these quotes really prove your point or even state a basic case for the compatability of anarchism and government provided healthcare.

    The first paragraph explains that power relationships, domination, and institutionalized violence are not uniquely of the state, and further explains that the goal of an anarchist should be to construct other relationships. I agree. However, by cementing the state’s role in health care, we are only cementing a system of domination and power relationships involvement in health care. To actually construct other relationships would not mean to give more power to a health care system of domination run by power seeking bureaucrats. It would actually mean finding ways to empower communities to develop systems and organizations to take care of its members health care. I am not thinking of charity, as Tim above seems to indicate. I am thinking more along the lines of health care cooperatives. Actually, before the depression, many people formed health care cooperatives and put a doctor on retainer. The AMA objected to such practices because they felt that doctors were providing health care too cheaply. Also, it would be a good idea to look at the health care system and determine how government privilege helps wealthy health care providers and disadvantages the consumer.

    I don’t understand how the second paragraph actually supports government run health care. It actually indicates that welfare should not be a function of the system but part of the everyday life of citizens and the community. I don’t understand how making the provision of healthcare a part of our government puts it in the “everyday life of citizens and the community.” In fact it places it further from the community, and puts it in the hand of our rulers.

    The third paragraph explicitly states that state run welfare will have minimal success. Is this not admiting that government run health care will not work well? I also agree that pairing down state provision of social services is not the answer. Instead we should pair down the instruments the government uses to support the privilege of the wealthy. I disagree that the market in itself is the problem. The problem is when the wealthy use the government to maintain and expand their wealth at the expense of others. Finally, I agree that a democratic and participatory alternative to the welfare state is urgently needed. However, expanding the welfare state is not a way to actually promote an alternative to the welfare state.

    What I really don’t understand about anarchists for the government provision of health is why they think this will work. If the government is really run for the interests of the wealthy (and I fully believe it is), why would it end up doing something that is not actually in the interest of the wealthy? If the government were to set up a health care system, I fully believe it is because the wealthy and powerfull benefited, and its organization would not have the betterment of the common man in mind. So, instead of expanding government control of health care, why do anarchists not instead work to find cooperative solutions?

  6. June 12, 2008 9:38 pm

    Mike,

    The excerpt states “welfare is inextricably linked to empowerment, which is why State-provided welfare is always going to have minimal success.” So it seems to be suggesting that States de facto do not provide adequate welfare. But, so far as I can figure, Western Europe does a pretty good job. In the author’s logic, either Western Europe is not made up of modern states, or states do, in fact, provide adequate welfare. I don’t see how the author can sensibly make that statement about anything other than this specific thing.

  7. June 12, 2008 9:38 pm

    “thing” should read “state”

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