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	<title>Comments on: Chaput and Douthat on voting</title>
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	<description>Catholic perspectives on culture, society, and politics</description>
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		<title>By: Kurt</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/06/03/chaput-and-douthat-on-voting/#comment-23561</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kurt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 20:04:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=2588#comment-23561</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Blackadder, 

I do have my facts straight.  I repeat, nothing in NARAL&#039;s scorecard is a direct abortion vote.  The votes are as follows:

HR 976 - has to do with nomenclature.  HR 2764 pertained to a dispute over activities of the UNPF and presidential authority.  HR 2764 (2 votes) had to do with contraception and overseas groups.  HR 3043 had to do with contraception and domestic groups.

The indirect connection with abortion had to do with making grants available to non-profit groups to distribute contraceptives.  It was proposed that private groups that use their private money to provide abortions should not be allowed to apply for these grants.  Fair enough.  There is a debate as to if &quot;all money is fungible&quot; or not.  

For an example of politicians rank hypocrisy, observe this debate when the issue is school vouchers (illegal financing of religion?) or health care services (Planned Parenthood?).  Few, on either side, show any consistency.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Blackadder, </p>
<p>I do have my facts straight.  I repeat, nothing in NARAL&#8217;s scorecard is a direct abortion vote.  The votes are as follows:</p>
<p>HR 976 &#8211; has to do with nomenclature.  HR 2764 pertained to a dispute over activities of the UNPF and presidential authority.  HR 2764 (2 votes) had to do with contraception and overseas groups.  HR 3043 had to do with contraception and domestic groups.</p>
<p>The indirect connection with abortion had to do with making grants available to non-profit groups to distribute contraceptives.  It was proposed that private groups that use their private money to provide abortions should not be allowed to apply for these grants.  Fair enough.  There is a debate as to if &#8220;all money is fungible&#8221; or not.  </p>
<p>For an example of politicians rank hypocrisy, observe this debate when the issue is school vouchers (illegal financing of religion?) or health care services (Planned Parenthood?).  Few, on either side, show any consistency.</p>
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		<title>By: Blackadder</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/06/03/chaput-and-douthat-on-voting/#comment-23532</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Blackadder]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 18:45:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=2588#comment-23532</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Kurt, 

You need to get your facts straight. &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico_City_Policy&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Mexico City policy&lt;/a&gt; does, in fact, have something to do with abortion, Planned Parenthood gets &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.theconservativevoice.com/articles/article.html?id=11699&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;more than $250 million in taxpayer funding a year&lt;/a&gt;, and the federal born alive bill, like most federal laws, applies only in certain circumstances, meaning that the state born alive bill Obama killed would not have been redundant. Whether the Freedom of Choice Act might pass if you had an overwhelmingly Democratic congress and a Democratic President is debatable. That nothing on &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.prochoiceamerica.org/assets/files/final-2007-voting-record.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;NARAL&#039;s scorecard&lt;/a&gt; has to do with abortion is just laughable.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kurt, </p>
<p>You need to get your facts straight. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico_City_Policy" rel="nofollow">The Mexico City policy</a> does, in fact, have something to do with abortion, Planned Parenthood gets <a href="http://www.theconservativevoice.com/articles/article.html?id=11699" rel="nofollow">more than $250 million in taxpayer funding a year</a>, and the federal born alive bill, like most federal laws, applies only in certain circumstances, meaning that the state born alive bill Obama killed would not have been redundant. Whether the Freedom of Choice Act might pass if you had an overwhelmingly Democratic congress and a Democratic President is debatable. That nothing on <a href="http://www.prochoiceamerica.org/assets/files/final-2007-voting-record.pdf" rel="nofollow">NARAL&#8217;s scorecard</a> has to do with abortion is just laughable.</p>
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		<title>By: Kurt</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/06/03/chaput-and-douthat-on-voting/#comment-23522</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kurt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 18:24:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=2588#comment-23522</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;b&gt;- co-sponsor of “Freedom of Choice Act”&lt;/b&gt;

yes, but no chance it will pass either House of Congress. 

&lt;b&gt;- wants increased federal funding, including for Planned Parenthood&lt;/b&gt;

There is no federal funding of abortion.  You can&#039;t increase what doesn&#039;t exist. 

&lt;b&gt;- 100 percent rating (and endorsement) from NARAL and other groups&lt;/b&gt;

And not one issue in NARAL&#039;s scorecard is a direct abortion issue. 

&lt;b&gt;- opposes the Mexico City policy&lt;/b&gt;

which is not a direct abortion issue. 

&lt;b&gt;- actively opposed and lobbied against a bill to define as a “person” a fully born baby who survived an abortion&lt;/b&gt;

No.  There was already a federal law as to this.  

&lt;b&gt;- opposes ban on partial-birth abortion&lt;/b&gt;

which has no chance of being repealed. 

The items here may give evidence to the fact that Obama is pro-choice, something we already knew.  They do not answer the question that is election would cause a rise in the number of abortions (the last major rise was under the pro-life/&quot;me generation&quot; individualism administration of Ronald Reagan.  The steepest decline was under Clinton).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>- co-sponsor of “Freedom of Choice Act”</b></p>
<p>yes, but no chance it will pass either House of Congress. </p>
<p><b>- wants increased federal funding, including for Planned Parenthood</b></p>
<p>There is no federal funding of abortion.  You can&#8217;t increase what doesn&#8217;t exist. </p>
<p><b>- 100 percent rating (and endorsement) from NARAL and other groups</b></p>
<p>And not one issue in NARAL&#8217;s scorecard is a direct abortion issue. </p>
<p><b>- opposes the Mexico City policy</b></p>
<p>which is not a direct abortion issue. </p>
<p><b>- actively opposed and lobbied against a bill to define as a “person” a fully born baby who survived an abortion</b></p>
<p>No.  There was already a federal law as to this.  </p>
<p><b>- opposes ban on partial-birth abortion</b></p>
<p>which has no chance of being repealed. </p>
<p>The items here may give evidence to the fact that Obama is pro-choice, something we already knew.  They do not answer the question that is election would cause a rise in the number of abortions (the last major rise was under the pro-life/&#8221;me generation&#8221; individualism administration of Ronald Reagan.  The steepest decline was under Clinton).</p>
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		<title>By: Zippy</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/06/03/chaput-and-douthat-on-voting/#comment-23248</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zippy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 02:17:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=2588#comment-23248</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I never suggested that you should vote for McCain.  In fact, I think you shouldn&#039;t.  I think it is probably impossible to vote for either McCain or Obama without doing moral wrong.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I never suggested that you should vote for McCain.  In fact, I think you shouldn&#8217;t.  I think it is probably impossible to vote for either McCain or Obama without doing moral wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: M.Z. Forrest</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/06/03/chaput-and-douthat-on-voting/#comment-23179</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[M.Z. Forrest]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jun 2008 19:07:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=2588#comment-23179</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[My interest in abortion is not where it is carried out but upon whom it is done.  

The implicit wasn&#039;t enough for its own sake so I&#039;ll make it explicit:  I have no issue proscribing where abortion occurs &lt;i&gt;for its own sake.&lt;/i&gt;  Like most any rational person I will cede lesser goods for greater goods.  I can&#039;t for the life of me fathom why I should vote for McCain to kill hundreds of thousands of Iranians, injure countless more, and displace equally as many so Obama won&#039;t elminate the abortion free zones at bases overseas.  It&#039;s tantamount to claiming opposition to drug free zones around schools is encouraging drug use.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My interest in abortion is not where it is carried out but upon whom it is done.  </p>
<p>The implicit wasn&#8217;t enough for its own sake so I&#8217;ll make it explicit:  I have no issue proscribing where abortion occurs <i>for its own sake.</i>  Like most any rational person I will cede lesser goods for greater goods.  I can&#8217;t for the life of me fathom why I should vote for McCain to kill hundreds of thousands of Iranians, injure countless more, and displace equally as many so Obama won&#8217;t elminate the abortion free zones at bases overseas.  It&#8217;s tantamount to claiming opposition to drug free zones around schools is encouraging drug use.</p>
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		<title>By: Zippy</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/06/03/chaput-and-douthat-on-voting/#comment-23177</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zippy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jun 2008 18:49:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=2588#comment-23177</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;...not that I support increasing the geographic footprint of abortion.&lt;/i&gt;

You certainly appear to support increasing the legal &#039;footprint&#039; of abortion, as long as doing so gets you other things that you want.

I think you mean &#039;UCMJ&#039;.  Your whole discourse is a sidetrack, an attempted red herring, from the simple fact that Obama will in fact make abortion legal in places where today it is not.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8230;not that I support increasing the geographic footprint of abortion.</i></p>
<p>You certainly appear to support increasing the legal &#8216;footprint&#8217; of abortion, as long as doing so gets you other things that you want.</p>
<p>I think you mean &#8216;UCMJ&#8217;.  Your whole discourse is a sidetrack, an attempted red herring, from the simple fact that Obama will in fact make abortion legal in places where today it is not.</p>
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		<title>By: M.Z. Forrest</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/06/03/chaput-and-douthat-on-voting/#comment-23159</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[M.Z. Forrest]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jun 2008 17:08:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=2588#comment-23159</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[By a similar token one isn&#039;t compelled to support a law preventing an abortion clinic from being sited within a 1000 feet of a school although I wouldn&#039;t be against such a measure.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By a similar token one isn&#8217;t compelled to support a law preventing an abortion clinic from being sited within a 1000 feet of a school although I wouldn&#8217;t be against such a measure.</p>
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		<title>By: M.Z. Forrest</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/06/03/chaput-and-douthat-on-voting/#comment-23158</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[M.Z. Forrest]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jun 2008 17:06:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=2588#comment-23158</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Under older theories of law and as is the case with many countries today one is governed under the laws of his country when not confined within that country&#039;s territory.  The U.S. in fact has a few laws asserting jurisdiction for acts commited overseas.  Where this is particularly relevant is that the military is governed under the USMC which enjoys universal juridiction for all military members.  There is no law in the USMC against seeking or procuring an abortion.  Therefore it is indeed a case of geography, not that I support increasing the geographic footprint of abortion.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Under older theories of law and as is the case with many countries today one is governed under the laws of his country when not confined within that country&#8217;s territory.  The U.S. in fact has a few laws asserting jurisdiction for acts commited overseas.  Where this is particularly relevant is that the military is governed under the USMC which enjoys universal juridiction for all military members.  There is no law in the USMC against seeking or procuring an abortion.  Therefore it is indeed a case of geography, not that I support increasing the geographic footprint of abortion.</p>
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		<title>By: Zippy</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/06/03/chaput-and-douthat-on-voting/#comment-23154</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zippy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jun 2008 16:57:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=2588#comment-23154</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[MZ: nonsense.  It is a grave moral evil to legalize abortion within any given geography under one&#039;s jurisdiction, independent of speculation about what people may or may not have the opportunity to do elsewhere.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MZ: nonsense.  It is a grave moral evil to legalize abortion within any given geography under one&#8217;s jurisdiction, independent of speculation about what people may or may not have the opportunity to do elsewhere.</p>
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		<title>By: M.Z. Forrest</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/06/03/chaput-and-douthat-on-voting/#comment-23139</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[M.Z. Forrest]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jun 2008 15:19:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=2588#comment-23139</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Zippy,

While it is true that particular children would be murdered on military bases were such a policy to be enacted, it is also true they go off base for abortions now and would continue to do so if such a policy weren&#039;t implemented.  It is a question of geography and is not a particularly high consideration in a vote for President.

The only clear cut case where support would be untenable would be the case where the license to abort children would be expanded.  Given the liberality of our abortion laws, this scenario is near impossible.  Presently, the Republicans aren&#039;t proposing to limit the abortion license, so it is pretty difficulty to hold their position as morally compelling.  I know you don&#039;t find either candidate compelling, but that is not the plane where many of us our making our choice.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Zippy,</p>
<p>While it is true that particular children would be murdered on military bases were such a policy to be enacted, it is also true they go off base for abortions now and would continue to do so if such a policy weren&#8217;t implemented.  It is a question of geography and is not a particularly high consideration in a vote for President.</p>
<p>The only clear cut case where support would be untenable would be the case where the license to abort children would be expanded.  Given the liberality of our abortion laws, this scenario is near impossible.  Presently, the Republicans aren&#8217;t proposing to limit the abortion license, so it is pretty difficulty to hold their position as morally compelling.  I know you don&#8217;t find either candidate compelling, but that is not the plane where many of us our making our choice.</p>
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		<title>By: Zippy</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/06/03/chaput-and-douthat-on-voting/#comment-23133</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zippy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jun 2008 14:56:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=2588#comment-23133</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;What exactly will Obama do to further the incidence of abortion? If you are talking about the military bases on foreign soil, then I would say remove them (and I’m not being facetious here; I support that wholeheartedly).&lt;/i&gt;

But he &lt;i&gt;isn&#039;t&lt;/i&gt; going to remove them, and he is &lt;i&gt;is&lt;/i&gt; going to authorize abortions on them, and particular children will be murdered in cold blood on them.

You can&#039;t change the subject as though a vote for Obama was a vote for you, with all that you say you would do.  A vote for Obama is a vote for Obama, not a vote for yourself.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>What exactly will Obama do to further the incidence of abortion? If you are talking about the military bases on foreign soil, then I would say remove them (and I’m not being facetious here; I support that wholeheartedly).</i></p>
<p>But he <i>isn&#8217;t</i> going to remove them, and he is <i>is</i> going to authorize abortions on them, and particular children will be murdered in cold blood on them.</p>
<p>You can&#8217;t change the subject as though a vote for Obama was a vote for you, with all that you say you would do.  A vote for Obama is a vote for Obama, not a vote for yourself.</p>
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		<title>By: digbydolben</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/06/03/chaput-and-douthat-on-voting/#comment-23130</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[digbydolben]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jun 2008 14:25:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=2588#comment-23130</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You know, I think that people writing here are very, very stupid for the most part. I NEVER said that I was in favour of abortion on demand (I&#039;m not). I just made the observation that the society is deeply polarized on this issue and suggested (by inference) that some sort of compromise might be preferable to civil strife. (And, no, I&#039;m not confused about federalism and understand perfectly well that some states would keep abortion--just like some states would have kept slavery for a little while, if a solution more reasonable for THAT controversy than CIVIL WAR had been found.)

And, yes, I LIKE caps; it&#039;s an 18th century writing style I like. I don&#039;t agree with the modern convention that it represents YELLING, but think it indicates EMPHASIS, and I WILL continue to use it as much as I please.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know, I think that people writing here are very, very stupid for the most part. I NEVER said that I was in favour of abortion on demand (I&#8217;m not). I just made the observation that the society is deeply polarized on this issue and suggested (by inference) that some sort of compromise might be preferable to civil strife. (And, no, I&#8217;m not confused about federalism and understand perfectly well that some states would keep abortion&#8211;just like some states would have kept slavery for a little while, if a solution more reasonable for THAT controversy than CIVIL WAR had been found.)</p>
<p>And, yes, I LIKE caps; it&#8217;s an 18th century writing style I like. I don&#8217;t agree with the modern convention that it represents YELLING, but think it indicates EMPHASIS, and I WILL continue to use it as much as I please.</p>
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