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Nationalist Priests…

April 13, 2008

One of the things that depresses me most about the Catholic blogosphere is the (thankfully small) number of blogging priests who triumph their Americanism, even at times above their faith, so it seems. It gives me no joy to point this out, and it’s not about scoring points. It’s about a sense of sadness and frustration.

Anyway, see this post from Fr. John Zuhlsdorf, apparently one of the more popular of the blogging priests (he seems to attract the all-our-problems-will-be-solved-with-the-tridentine-Mass group). He is practically gushing over a a warship (“gorgeous lines”, “graceful”,  “incredible firepower”) and then comes the kicker: “She was revived for the Gulf War, and her huge turrets educated Iraqi targets”. That would be the Iraq war that John Paul II opposed, was it it not? And they would be Iraqi human beings being “educated”, would they not? How does this statement of bellicose nationalism square with the the memory of Jesus the Christ, a memory preserved by the Church? How does It square with the passionate anti-war message laid out by the same John Paul in Centesimus Annus?  How does it square with the notion that war is always a failure and something to mourn, given it is last resort? How does it square by recent Vatican statements on war? It doesn’t. He is bowing before an idol, an idol of the nation state, an idol of war. And that holds whether I say it in English or Latin, by the way.

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69 Comments
  1. April 13, 2008 8:22 pm

    What about the Catholic Obama Advisory Committe? I suppose you think that’s a beautiful thing?

  2. Policraticus permalink*
    April 13, 2008 9:03 pm

    Terry,

    Unless the advisory committee to which you refer is a proponent of nationalism, I don’t see how your question has any immediate relevance…unless of course you subject discourse on nationalism to the shallow binary of Republican and Democrat.

  3. April 13, 2008 9:05 pm

    Mel Gibson and Pat Buchanan need to start a Catholic blog to siphon the American Traditionalists away from the neo-con grip.

  4. Katerina permalink
    April 13, 2008 9:31 pm

    Ok, Terry, who’s talking about Obama? Geez, can we focus for once on an actual post instead of deflecting a real issue?

  5. TeutonicTim permalink
    April 13, 2008 10:02 pm

    Maybe those turrets “educated” some of Saddam’s cronies and help free a country.

  6. April 13, 2008 10:05 pm

    Where’s the nationalism? Did you mean to say militarism?

  7. Mark deFrancisis permalink*
    April 13, 2008 10:06 pm

    I wonder about the state and quality of basic moral theology in our seminaries. I know this guy is a wingnut loon (he writes for the Wanderer), but I cannot get many young priests to even engage the issue of the Iraq War. They give the typical “war is not an intrinsic evil, whereas gay sex and abortion is” line, and the conversation then ends. Either they simply do not see the grave moral evil of the war, or, they have some internal, deep sense of it, but fear they might be committing a mortal sin–in that if they criticize of the party that is ‘pro-life,’ they may give the laity an iota of a reason to not vote GOP nationally, thus leading our souls to the brink of hell.

  8. TeutonicTim permalink
    April 13, 2008 10:08 pm

    “Ok, Terry, who’s talking about Obama? Geez, can we focus for once on an actual post instead of deflecting a real issue?”

    I believe he’s pointing to the overall well known obvious bias of this site. Constantly harping on certain “issues” at the expense of others.

  9. none permalink
    April 13, 2008 10:09 pm

    “She was revived for the Gulf War, and her huge turrets educated Iraqi targets”. That would be the Iraq war that John Paul II opposed, was it it not?

    http://www.usswisconsin.org/General/Ships%20History.htm

    The USS Wisconsin participated in the 1991 Gulf War.

    I don’t know what Fr. Z’s thinks of the other Gulf War, but he has at least posted what the Holy Father has to say about the situation in Iraq.

    I would think that this blog is above hit pieces.

    (he seems to attract the all-our-problems-will-be-solved-with-the-tridentine-Mass group)

    And this is gratuitous. His readership consists of both those who are attached to the EF and those who wish to see a reform of the OF. Perhaps you should think about why you thought it was necessary to include this piece of information in this way.

  10. April 13, 2008 10:10 pm

    I guess I need to speak up for Father Z here.

    First it should be noted that the First Pope to visit American Territory in a Techincal sense was Pope Pius XI. He need this on the famous American Warship of all time. I talked about this today

    The First Papal Trip to “United States ” resulted in a Court Martial Proceeding!!! ( AN Overview)

    http://opinionatedcatholic.blogspot.com/2008/04/first-papal-trip-to-united-states.html

    Besides that Father Z is a huge Naval buff and often posts pics of such things. He recently posted many pictures from the UK on old ships

    Father Z on the whole does not talk about politics that much on his blog. He is also is not always foused on the Extraordianry Form of the Mass. The name of his blog is part of its Mission. That is it deals with on many of occasion the new English Translations of the Prayers of the Mass that are coming to fruition. He is an advocate of the what is known as the “Latin Mass” but he very much wants the older to effect the newer. He also does a good job with trying to reconcile some of the Traditionalist back to the Church and gives a forum for such discussion.

    IN his past entries he has noted the Papal messages on War. IF is infected with the heresy of Americanism I have not seen it. In fact he seems often to have a Roman point of view

  11. Policraticus permalink*
    April 13, 2008 10:11 pm

    I believe he’s pointing to the overall well known obvious bias of this site. Constantly harping on certain “issues” at the expense of others.

    So if it’s “well known,” why bring it up?

    Let’s return to the topic at hand…nationalism/militarism and priests. MM asked a number of questions in his post which I suspect were asked in order to generate discussion on the topic.

  12. none permalink
    April 13, 2008 10:14 pm

    I know this guy is a wingnut loon (he writes for the Wanderer), but I cannot get many young priests to even engage the issue of the Iraq War.

    Guilt by association. Any substantial evidence that he is a “wingnut loon”? As far as I know, his columns for the are about the liturgy.

  13. April 13, 2008 10:17 pm

    He is bowing before an idol, an idol of the nation state, an idol of war.

    Yes.

  14. none permalink
    April 13, 2008 10:25 pm

    MM asked a number of questions in his post which I suspect were asked in order to generate discussion on the topic.

    I think they were actually asked to criticize a priest.

  15. April 13, 2008 10:26 pm

    Since we are talking about Father Z and Warships we might as well have the full picture. Be sure not to miss his cool post here from yesterday

    A visit to Norfolk, VA

    http://wdtprs.com/blog/2008/04/a-visit-to-norfolk-va/

    Father has pics of an Aircraft Carrier and Horros more Priest and evan the AirCraft Carriers Chapel and looks like its is prepared for Mass

  16. jonathanjones02 permalink
    April 13, 2008 10:44 pm

    Instead of a crazed idol worshipper, perhaps Father is a plane and ship buff. The vast majority of these, from my fairly extensive interactions with these folks, is that they are harmless, good family people, solid citizens, and disdainful of politics and politicians.

  17. April 13, 2008 11:02 pm

    jh – Thanks for the additional link. Confirms for me everything MM said in his post.

    I think they were actually asked to criticize a priest.

    Are priests off-limits?

  18. Blackadder permalink
    April 13, 2008 11:21 pm

    I’m pretty sure that the Wanderer is anti-Iraq war, for what it’s worth.

  19. none permalink
    April 13, 2008 11:35 pm

    Are priests off-limits

    Rash judgment of anyone, including priests, is wrong.

  20. Mark DeFrancisis permalink*
    April 13, 2008 11:35 pm

    BA,

    That was on my part an unfair jab at the Wanderer, at least in regards to the war. I used to read the paper regularly in my more reactionary days, in the late 80s, right after my reversion back to Catholicism.The periodical was a doozie back then, as I later came to realize.

    I have not followed it since, say, ’91. I recently overheard, however, that one of its main writers since then, who left, turned into one dandy of a(n) (anti)friend to Judaism, whose lectures were recently cancelled at Catholic U., after the institution was finally alerted to some of his ‘wonderful’ publishing history.

  21. Mark DeFrancisis permalink*
    April 13, 2008 11:44 pm

    “her huge turrets educated Iraqi targets”

    From these words alone, it is evident that MM has made no rash judgment.

    In fact, these sounds like an androgynous wet-dream of sorts.

    Again, the subject is priests and militarism/nationalism.

    And by the way, the first Iraqi invasion (what was the euphenism Desert Storm?) was too both an unjust one and declared such by JPII.

  22. April 14, 2008 12:05 am

    “From these words alone, it is evident that MM has made no rash judgment.”

    Really two words and we are leaping to Americanism and bellicose nationalism

    I think that is a tad rash

  23. April 14, 2008 12:36 am

    About 10 years ago, I used to work with a woman named Callie, who was from New Zealand. She was about as apolitical as the come – I don’t think she’d ever voted in her life, in either New Zealand or the US.

    We were sitting around the office one evening with a couple of beers, shooting the breeze one evening after a long, hectic day taking care of the last of the seasonal inventory, and I asked her, “What was the first thing you noticed about America when you arrived here?”

    She sort of paused, as if to judge my possible reactions to what she was about to say, and then said, “Well…everywhere you go here, you’re swimming in propaganda.”

    I was surprised, and asked her what she meant, and she said, “I always hear people on the news and in the government saying that ‘America is the most powerful nation on earth.’ ”

    “Well…I guess it’s true, isn’t it?” I asked.

    “Sure, of course. But have you ever asked yourself why that is said on a regular basis?”

    I guess I looked even more confused, because she said, “Let me ask you to try something for me. The next time you go to the city, just drive around randomly and stop every 5 minutes. Get out of the car, and look around for an American flag. I would bet you good money that there will never be an occasion where an American flag is not visible.”

    So, the next weekend, my girlfriend and I drove over the Bay Bridge and into San Francisco, and tried this. I drove, she kept time, and every 5 minutes she would say, “Stop!” and I would pull over at the next safe spot.

    Callie, my coworker, was right: there was never a place where an American flag was not visible. We made 20 stops, and most of the time we did not even have to get out of the car to find one. This was in late February, not the 4th of July or Memorial Day (and before 9/11/01).

    Nationalism saturates American life – it is just the ever-present, ambient sound coming from every form of corporate media, 24/7/365, so ever-present that it has become, in an odd way, invisible. I have come to understand that it is idolatry – subtler, arguably, that building a golden calf, but no less idolatrous. And it disturbs me a great deal.

    I expect Catholic priests (and, come to mention it, Catholic laity) to stand up against this sort of thing. That a priest would play along with this is not really surprising (I doubt he has ever really thought it through) but it is a sad reminder for me that we Catholics, at every level of our society and in every vocation, me included, have failed to do our jobs of providing clear witness against this Moloch-like “Machinery of Night,” to borrow a phrase from Allen Ginsberg.

  24. April 14, 2008 3:38 am

    Well, the words were about the first Iraq War, which was another unjust war, and clearly in praise of America’s actions in that war. So I think the militarism is there, but it is a militarism of America (not any other nation) which is being praised, so obviously American militarism.

    Of course, the online cult of Fr. Z. is going to be upset that their oracle has been denounced. Seriously, he seems to be the major spirit behind the radical Catholics on the net, making them feel like they are in the norm when the reverse is the actual case. “Save the liturgy, save the world” craziness says it all — the liturgy doesn’t need to be saved.

  25. digbydolben permalink
    April 14, 2008 6:41 am

    Matt:

    You and your friend are absolutely right: anybody who has lived outside of the U.S. knows that this NEVER goes on anywhere else except in the United States–unless the country you are living in is actually at war. The U.S. is in a “war-making mindset” 24-7. Don’t believe it? Then why is almost EVERY SINGLE collective effort in this society called “the war on…..?”

  26. Mark DeFrancisis permalink*
    April 14, 2008 8:09 am

    Henry,

    “”Save the world, save the liturgy craziness” says it all-;the liturgy does not need to be saved.”

    I too never understoood the ‘sentiment’ of the quote. Like the Church, it’s the liturgy that saves us.

  27. April 14, 2008 8:36 am

    HEnry I suppose there can be of course a debate about the First Gulf War. I need to go back and review what John Paul the II statements were on it. I was aware at the time he was against it but my meomory fades some on what he said. Needless to say the fact that a A Country was invaded and the World’s 4th largest military was posed to go into Saudi(which has no military worth a darn) seems to be getting close to a just war.

    Father Z’ audience is quite diverse. It is not only the “Latin Mass” crowd. It is people that want a reform of the rteform of the liturgy. Does Liturgy need saving? In fact it does. The tradition of Catholic Sacred Music needs saving. A whole much of our Catholic Patrimony needs saving. Father Z helps this as well as trying to reconcille a group of people back to the Church. Perhasp that is his calling

  28. April 14, 2008 8:39 am

    “I too never understoood the ’sentiment’ of the quote. Like the Church, it’s the liturgy that saves us.”

    Mark I think many of the people that read Father Z blog would agree with you that the “Liturgy saves us”. That is one reason why they read him. Again he also talks about the new English Translations of the Liturgy coming out. Being that he knows Latin he is quite useful on that front. He generally gives news from Rome and the Italian Press that is important to Catholics Worldwide but often is not reported.

    I know this might shock some people here but perhaps this is his “calling”

  29. T. Shaw permalink
    April 14, 2008 8:44 am

    Ww! Sm thghts. s ntnlsm grvr sn thn brtn? Jst msng. Dnt gt yr jvnl scvvs n bnch. S, wh dnncd Fthr Z? bshp? crdnl? Th pp? Whn wll y phlsphr kngs dsst wth th chrd nd rnm ths blg Th n-ln Clt f bm? f y wr rfrrng t y-ll hrn dnncng Fthr Z. Thts nlgs t bng dnncd b rll f tlt ppr. t mns nthng t nyn xcpt thr rrgnt jrks nd ssrtd ltsts tht ht th Lnd f th Fr nd th Hm f th Brv. S y ltr, chldrn.

  30. Katerina permalink*
    April 14, 2008 9:15 am

    I know this might shock some people here but perhaps this is his “calling”

    If this is what some priests are called to do, then we are in deep trouble as a Church. Everybody can be a priest then.

  31. Greg permalink
    April 14, 2008 10:02 am

    Good grief. I’ve never seen such piling on when a priest has one post about a navy ship he admires. Father Z is actually very knowledgeable about the liturgy and very knowledgeable about latin. He completely supports the current Pope’s reform of the reform intentions. His slogan “Save the Liturgy, Save the World” is in reference to 1) better translations of the Novus Ordo 2) Greater usage of chant and polyphony 3) Greater usage of latin in the liturgy.

    As far as the Iraq war goes, he writes for the Wanderer which is stridently anti-Iraq war so I am sure he is. At least he has never said anything in support of the current Iraq war.

    So why do you make the incredible leap of accusing him of being a “nationalistic” priest?

  32. April 14, 2008 10:06 am

    Digbydolben –

    The U.S. is in a “war-making mindset” 24-7. Don’t believe it? Then why is almost EVERY SINGLE collective effort in this society called “the war on…..?”

    I agree, although I think there is a factor there that’s worth mentioning – there is a sort of nostalgic cultural memory of the extraordinary national unity and sense of shared common purpose during the Second World War in the United States. That memory is what is being appealed to when something is described as “The War on…”

    The atomization and anomie of American society goes a long way to explain the appeal of that memory.

  33. April 14, 2008 10:11 am

    “Save the Liturgy, Save the World” is actually about pushing an agenda and falsely portraying what Benedict is about to encourage that agenda itself. He’s one who posts critically on Bishops all the time if they don’t follow his singular interpretation…

  34. Tim F. permalink
    April 14, 2008 10:16 am

    Greg,

    Not only have they accused him of being a nationalist priest, they have implied he might be gay (the androgynous wet dream remark), is leader of a cult of crazies, and that if he can be a priest then the church is in trouble and anyone can be a priest. All these nasty insults from the people who set themselves up as the models of Christian discipleship.

  35. Morning's Minion permalink*
    April 14, 2008 10:22 am

    Matt: you are absolutely right about the nationalism that pervades every aspect of American life. You just don’t see that in other western countries. The dark side, of course, is the militarism. Isn’t there something fundamentally warped about the idea of a priest extolling the virtues of weapons of mass destruction that can “educate” whoever the secular leadership says is the enemy of the United States at this particular point in time? It’s the model of Julius II, except that its the secular leadership he is boosting, not the Church’s temporal arm.

  36. adamv permalink
    April 14, 2008 10:23 am

    Is there any real difference between the issue raised in this post, and this earlier one about priest’s disruptions at mass:

    http://vox-nova.com/2008/04/07/where-are-the-men-priests-ask/.

    This seems like a deep symptom of a problem with contemporary priests. People get mad when they don’t take a stand on issues, and when they do its often linked with “Republican” politics and views of the world.

  37. Greg permalink
    April 14, 2008 10:33 am

    Henry,

    Yes, you are correct. He pushes his agenda of increased use of 1) Gregorian chant 2) Latin and 3) liturgies that follow the prescribed rubrics (another slogan of his is “Say the black, do the red”). So you are absolutely correct in your in-depth analysis that his “agenda” is completely contrary to what Pope Benedict desires. Thank you for exposing this priest.

  38. April 14, 2008 10:35 am

    Father John Zuhlsdorf responds (on his blog):

    Some people might think my enthusiasm for seeing the aircraft carrier or this battleship smack of nationalism or being bellicose.

    Silly.

    I do not apologize for being an American or proud of of my country, which pulled many other peoples’ fat out of the fire with the blood of her soldiers, sailors and marines.

    Pope Benedict in his first Message for the World Day of Peace pointed out the importance of military intervention at times to establish the proper framework for true peace.

    There it is!

  39. April 14, 2008 10:36 am

    Yes, Christopher, I think many of us saw.

    “There it is.” Of course, he is not responding to the real concern. No one has denied the possibility of just wars in this post. They have, however, questioned gloating over death for an American war abroad which has many questionable sides to it.

  40. Morning's Minion permalink*
    April 14, 2008 10:44 am

    Ah, Fr. Zuhldorf is making the typical error of confusing patriotism (fine) with nationalism (not so fine). I would also like to know what he thinks of John Paul’s views on using weapons of mass destruction to “educate” the Iraqis during the two gulf wars. Is it too much to ask for priests to to actually preach what the pope says, even if it offends nationalist sensibilities?

  41. April 14, 2008 10:55 am

    Fr. Z’s response is typical.

  42. April 14, 2008 11:13 am

    Katernia,

    The call I am referring to is Liturgy. I think all of us as Catholics think that Priest, Religious, and the laity should be focused on what WE think needs to be done in the Church. His calling is just as significant as those that are involved in the Catholic Worker Movement and there Calling just as significant as his.

    People serve the Church in various matters whether in the Catholic Peace movementr, Chaplins on Aircraft carriers, clositered in a Convent praying for all of us, or engaging the Poor and the immigrant among us.

    That being said I think many people do a good job of explaining the complexities many of a Theologians thought and urging people not to put them in boxes.

    It is kinda of disurbing that Father Z is being put into a box on the most flimsy of evidence. Some how the Father Z’a of the World and people like Michael Iafrate that detest ROTC being in Catholic Schools all seem called to Action in the Chrurch. We see again the mystery of Church in th emodern world that appears to be a contradiction but perhaps is not.

  43. April 14, 2008 11:25 am

    Henry,

    As to Father Z and Bishops. Yes he is critical at times when it is apparent they are frangrant disobedience as to some of the latest Vatican dorectives.

    However on the flip side he expounds a great deal of effort in telling more “traditional minded folks” to go about this with respect and patience and true Christian understanding.

    He is quite well known to tell some they are off their rocker. You can see that in this post he recently had where he defended the Military ArchDiocese of the USA

    Catholic Family News attacks US Military Archdiocese regarding Summorum Pontificum

    http://wdtprs.com/blog/2008/04/catholic-family-news-attacks-us-military-archdiocese-regarding-summorum-pontificum/

    Father Z’s advice is quite well known to his readersand he often reminds people of the following as to the Liturgy and especially The Use of the ExtraordnaryForm of the Mass
    Fr. Z’s 5 Rules of Engagement for after the Motu Proprio is released:

    1) Rejoice because our liturgical life has been enriched, not because “we win”. Everyone wins when the Church’s life is enriched. This is not a “zero sum game”.

    2) Do not strut. Let us be gracious to those who have in the past not been gracious in regard to our “legitimate aspirations”.

    3) Show genuine Christian joy. If you want to attract people to what gives you so much consolation and happiness, be inviting and be joyful. Avoid the sourness some of the more traditional stamp have sadly worn for so long.

    4) Be engaged in the whole life of your parishes, especially in works of mercy organized by the same. If you want the whole Church to benefit from the use of the older liturgy, then you who are shaped by the older form of Mass should be of benefit to the whole Church in concrete terms.

    5) If the document doesn’t say everything we might hope for, don’t bitch about it like a whiner. Speak less of our rights and what we deserve, or what it ought to have been, as if we were our own little popes, and more about our gratitude, gratitude, gratitude for what God gives us.

  44. April 14, 2008 11:30 am

    “As to Father Z and Bishops. Yes he is critical at times when it is apparent they are frangrant disobedience as to some of the latest Vatican dorectives.”

    No, he is critical when they go against his agenda-driving interpretation of documents, and yet we must remember who is the pastor of the diocese (not a priest). He reads with a very wide eye view of what the Vatican has said, but, except for the people who think this is the way forward already, most people can note that the Vatican documents are not so open-ended as that.

    The idea that “the Latin mass is coming, and everything will once again be fine” is just absurd. Even if everyone returned to a pre-VII liturgy in the West, we must note that it was this liturgy which 1) created people who went against it and 2) in the centuries it was used, great abuses were in the church including the 3) attack on the papacy in Italy itself. In other words, it’s not the liturgy. People have been given a false hope and vision. They already have a lack of faith and hope (which can be seen in their reaction to secular realities) and they want something to blame other than the reality: themselves.

  45. none permalink
    April 14, 2008 11:40 am

    The idea that “the Latin mass is coming, and everything will once again be fine” is just absurd.

    Strawman. Where are the words of Fr. Z that back it up.

    As for his interpretation of SP, when the clarification comes out, I hope you will take your words back if you are proven wrong.

  46. none permalink
    April 14, 2008 11:41 am

    And one must remember that SP gives much to priests to decide whether they can celebrate the EF or not; they do not need the permission of the bishops and this is what Fr. Z is emphasizing against ‘directives’ issued by bishops and chanceries.

  47. April 14, 2008 11:44 am

    None

    That is a simplistic understanding of what it is saying. For a private liturgy, no, they don’t need permission.

  48. April 14, 2008 11:44 am

    hENRY,

    I don’t really percieve that it is Father Z’s viewpoint that the allowing more availability of the 1962 Form of the Liturgy is the answer to all that plagues the Catholic Church.

    As to his reading of Documents that have come out recently they appear to again battle the same specific points and does often give documnetationto back it up often.

    Father Z is involved trying to get people to return to the Unity of Church. SOme of these people have real hurts , some legitmate gripes, and many in their frustration I think are in danger of major sin by going an alternate route.

    He in the end is trying to reconcile these people back. Good for him!!

  49. Mark deFrancisis permalink*
    April 14, 2008 11:51 am

    Matt,

    I too had a similar experience in ‘dating’ an apolitical Brazilian who came to this country. She was a very intellectual and broadminded person (dual MAs, in classics and philosophy, and a Ph.D candidate in philosophy, musician and who could quote verbatim more Shakespeare than the amount of words a typical American has in his/her total vocabulary ).

    She got here in 2001 from Montreal (McGill) and left in 2003 for Toronto, U of T). She actually had recurrent nightmares over the jingoism and crude belligerentness that permeated the American culturo-political atmosphere and which she unfortunately confronted in her day-to-day, person-to-person affairs.

  50. Mark DeFrancisis permalink*
    April 14, 2008 12:10 pm

    Jh,

    I stand by my words about Z’s strange imagery: “gracious lines”; “incredible fire-power;” “huge turrets that educated her Iraqi targets.”

    I cound not have written a better parody of a libidinally tortured mindset if I tried. It’s almost a caricatutre. The sad thing is that it is his actual writing.

    And why has he opted into another fine hobby, of ‘connoisseurship’ or aesthetic guardianship of all things ‘liturgical’?

  51. April 14, 2008 12:31 pm

    Mark,

    I suppose I am not too shocked at some of Father Z’s line. “Gracious Lines” is a phrase I have heard often used as to Boast whether Civilian or Military. I suppsoe he has to do somewhat with the attitude of referring to Vessels as “she”

    “Incredible Fire Power” well it is true.

    “Huge Turrents that educate her Iraqi targets” I suppose I can see how this might be seem non caring to people that have views that is there is a ramant Military mindet that is destructive. However I still say to take one line and to impose that Father Z has this huge belief system on x is misplaced. Especially as to a blogger that has not really opened up his ideas on this subject.

  52. Mark DeFrancisis permalink
    April 14, 2008 12:40 pm

    I’ll stop with this: have you ever seen Kubrick’s Dr. Strangelove? Your man’s lines sound like sophomoric take-offs of stuff in that film.

    Sorry if I sound snarkish, but…

  53. Greg permalink
    April 14, 2008 12:47 pm

    Give me a break, Mark. “Incredible fire power”, “Huge Turrets”, “Gracious Lines”. He could be talking about his golf clubs.

  54. April 14, 2008 1:37 pm

    Greg,
    But he is not talking about golf clubs he is talking about instruments of war.

    enjoy Easter
    peace to all

  55. ben permalink
    April 14, 2008 1:41 pm

    This post is calumny.

    I’ve been an avid reader of Vox Nova for a long time. I followed MZ here from his “Discalced Yooper” blog.

    Although I’ve enjoyed much of the commentary here over the past year. It seems that too many of the posters and commenters here have become increasingly intollerant of other points of view. I’m thinking of Morning’s Minon and Michael Iafrate in particular.

    I find that I really only look forward to the posts of MZ Forrest and Nate Wildermuth anymore.

    I don’t think I’ll be a reader too much longer.

  56. Mark deFrancisis permalink*
    April 14, 2008 1:54 pm

    The priest waxes poetically about a military machine of mass destruction. He uses imagery of huge appendages, dealing forcefully with their targets. This is friggin’ rape imagery, pure and simple. He glosses over and slyly justifies such violence as ‘education’. This is very demented stuff, as tyhe real reference happens to be the Iraqi people, in the 1991 conflict, which was strongly deemed unjust by JPII himself.

    I did not write this sick stuff. I am unpacking it for what it is. Show me where I veer from the text.

  57. April 14, 2008 2:30 pm

    Although I’ve enjoyed much of the commentary here over the past year. It seems that too many of the posters and commenters here have become increasingly intollerant of other points of view. I’m thinking of Morning’s Minon and Michael Iafrate in particular.

    So what you’re saying is, we may have our views about war and militarism as long as we don’t take them tooooo seriously. To hell with that. You would not hold such a view against our contributors who show a similar “intolerance” for those who defend abortion. MM and I (and most of our other contributors) are dead serious when it comes to the taking of human life. If that makes me “intollerant” (sic) of “other points of view,” then so be it.

  58. April 14, 2008 2:40 pm

    Fr. Z made the mistake of referring to a Papal Peace message. Give me one day. :)

  59. April 14, 2008 9:04 pm

    Boy, it’s like I’m in a foreign country. I don’t recognize a soul and I’ve been Catholic blogging for over two years. And none of the commenters seem to espouse the “Love Thy Neighbor” message.

  60. April 14, 2008 9:21 pm

    Boy, it’s like I’m in a foreign country. I don’t recognize a soul and I’ve been Catholic blogging for over two years.

    These two sentences read together are simply amazing. The irony.

  61. April 15, 2008 3:44 am

    Ray

    So, gloating over the death of others is loving thy neighbor? In part, the context is that such a comment itself is the one which lacks such love. And if you look only at one post outside of the whole — well, you won’t know what messages are being given on this blog.

  62. jpf permalink
    April 15, 2008 11:12 am

    MM:

    While I agree with the basic gist of your post, I must say you took an entirely cheap swipe at the Latin Mass Community. As has been pointed out above there are many Traditionalist Catholics who are very much against the Iraq War – probably more so than most NO Catholics, e.g., the Wanderer, New Oxford Review, Pat Buchannan, Mel Gibson, Tom Woods. Admittedly, I frequent FSSP apostolates and have heard some of the priests voice the same nationalistic/militaristic nonsense as Father Z, but I also had one who consistently refered to Israel as Palestine (this priest left the FSSP to be a Dioceasean (sp?) Priest).

  63. Morning's Minion permalink*
    April 15, 2008 11:22 am

    JPF– on the contrary, I attend a Latin Mass (Novus Ordo) every week. Much to the amusement of my wife, I have a certain fondness for High Mass– chant, smells, bells, the works. What I object to is the obsession some people have with the tridentine liturgy.

  64. Greg permalink
    April 15, 2008 11:54 am

    Morning’s Minion,

    Where do you attend Mass? Have you ever gone to Old St Mary’s?

  65. Alan permalink
    April 15, 2008 10:38 pm

    Because as the now Pope pointed out before he was elected, war and the death penalty are not on par with abortion and euthanasia.

  66. johnny vino permalink
    April 16, 2008 10:16 pm

    Matt: you are absolutely right about the nationalism that pervades every aspect of American life. You just don’t see that in other western countries.

    Dear Morning’s Minion,

    Please come and visit me someday. I don’t think we’ve ever met.

    Sincerest Regards,

    The Modern European History section of your local library

  67. johnny vino permalink
    April 16, 2008 10:19 pm

    awww SNAP!

    I did not just do that to my man! Cold interupting his ecstasy at the Carter/Hamas hugfest…

  68. johnny vino permalink
    April 16, 2008 10:27 pm

    REDACTION

    MM is no doubt in mourning today what with Obama now sporting a flag lapel pin. That has to be like seeing your girlfriend pick her nose for the first time. It was insensitive of me to indirectly salt the wound – unless no one has a problem with teleology.

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