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	<title>Comments on: John Yoo, War Criminal</title>
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	<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/04/02/john-yoo-war-criminal/</link>
	<description>Catholic perspectives on culture, society, and politics</description>
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		<title>By: X-Cathedra</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/04/02/john-yoo-war-criminal/#comment-17569</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[X-Cathedra]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 02:21:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=2194#comment-17569</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree with Ba&#039;s previous post. Call me a pessimist, but I simply don&#039;t have the kind of faith in our political figures and institutions to suppose that Yoo was sought for sober, objective, and clear legal advice on the issue and, by golly, it just so happens that his objective, unbiased, and well reasoned legal analysis results in a big thumbs up to presidential torture tactics. Sorry, just a little hard for me to buy.

Pax Christi,]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Ba&#8217;s previous post. Call me a pessimist, but I simply don&#8217;t have the kind of faith in our political figures and institutions to suppose that Yoo was sought for sober, objective, and clear legal advice on the issue and, by golly, it just so happens that his objective, unbiased, and well reasoned legal analysis results in a big thumbs up to presidential torture tactics. Sorry, just a little hard for me to buy.</p>
<p>Pax Christi,</p>
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		<title>By: Blackadder</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/04/02/john-yoo-war-criminal/#comment-17566</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Blackadder]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 01:15:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=2194#comment-17566</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Abortion advocates also claim they are upholding the &#039;law&#039;.&quot;

The fact that abortion advocates *claim* they are upholding the law doesn&#039;t mean that they are actually doing so.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Abortion advocates also claim they are upholding the &#8216;law&#8217;.&#8221;</p>
<p>The fact that abortion advocates *claim* they are upholding the law doesn&#8217;t mean that they are actually doing so.</p>
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		<title>By: Morning's Minion</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/04/02/john-yoo-war-criminal/#comment-17565</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Morning's Minion]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 00:41:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=2194#comment-17565</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That is a silly distinction, Third, one rooted in positivism. Abortion advocates also claim they are upholding the &quot;law&quot;. What matter is whether it is just, not simply law.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That is a silly distinction, Third, one rooted in positivism. Abortion advocates also claim they are upholding the &#8220;law&#8221;. What matter is whether it is just, not simply law.</p>
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		<title>By: Third</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/04/02/john-yoo-war-criminal/#comment-17556</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Third]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 22:24:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=2194#comment-17556</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[MM: Again if we are to believe Yoo&#039;s explanation, he wasn&#039;t supporting or lobbying for anything. He was stating the law.

In your abortion hypo, it still depends. Advocating legalization of abortion is one thing. Stating the law is another. No need to go back to the 70&#039;s. If a client walked into your office and asked &quot;Is aborting my unborn child legal?&quot; would it be immoral for you to answer honestly?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MM: Again if we are to believe Yoo&#8217;s explanation, he wasn&#8217;t supporting or lobbying for anything. He was stating the law.</p>
<p>In your abortion hypo, it still depends. Advocating legalization of abortion is one thing. Stating the law is another. No need to go back to the 70&#8242;s. If a client walked into your office and asked &#8220;Is aborting my unborn child legal?&#8221; would it be immoral for you to answer honestly?</p>
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		<title>By: Blackadder</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/04/02/john-yoo-war-criminal/#comment-17550</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Blackadder]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 21:33:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=2194#comment-17550</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I haven&#039;t read this memo, but I read the other Yoo memo, which appears to be a shorter version of the same argument. The memo struck me as being agenda driven and employing pretty bad legal reasoning. It would be one thing if a dispassionate legal analysis led to an awful conclusion. It&#039;s quite another when one employs every cheap trick in the book in order to reach that conclusion.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I haven&#8217;t read this memo, but I read the other Yoo memo, which appears to be a shorter version of the same argument. The memo struck me as being agenda driven and employing pretty bad legal reasoning. It would be one thing if a dispassionate legal analysis led to an awful conclusion. It&#8217;s quite another when one employs every cheap trick in the book in order to reach that conclusion.</p>
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		<title>By: Morning's Minion</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/04/02/john-yoo-war-criminal/#comment-17540</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Morning's Minion]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 20:12:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=2194#comment-17540</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Third: if you suppotr and lobby for an intrinsically evil act, you are cooperating formally with evil. It&#039;s true with abortion, it&#039;s true with torture. 

Let&#039;s assume a lawyer in the early 1970s had written a justification for extending the right to privacy to encompass abortion, and Justice Blackmun was awayed by the argument-- would you all similarly dismiss this as a mere private opinion, &quot;amoral&quot; even?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Third: if you suppotr and lobby for an intrinsically evil act, you are cooperating formally with evil. It&#8217;s true with abortion, it&#8217;s true with torture. </p>
<p>Let&#8217;s assume a lawyer in the early 1970s had written a justification for extending the right to privacy to encompass abortion, and Justice Blackmun was awayed by the argument&#8211; would you all similarly dismiss this as a mere private opinion, &#8220;amoral&#8221; even?</p>
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		<title>By: Third</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/04/02/john-yoo-war-criminal/#comment-17529</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Third]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 19:41:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=2194#comment-17529</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[MM: If we take Yoo&#039;s word that he wasn&#039;t prejudiced, he didn&#039;t &quot;favor&quot; anything. He wrote a memo on the state of the law. If, in addition, we take Yoo&#039;s word that he didn&#039;t know how his memo would be used, he could not have knowingly cooperated with evil.

Having said all this, I think lawyers need to make a regular practice out of making their moral concerns known. Maybe law schools should teach moral reasoning and encourage including such arguments in memos. Maybe the government should have an &quot;Office of Moral Counsel.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MM: If we take Yoo&#8217;s word that he wasn&#8217;t prejudiced, he didn&#8217;t &#8220;favor&#8221; anything. He wrote a memo on the state of the law. If, in addition, we take Yoo&#8217;s word that he didn&#8217;t know how his memo would be used, he could not have knowingly cooperated with evil.</p>
<p>Having said all this, I think lawyers need to make a regular practice out of making their moral concerns known. Maybe law schools should teach moral reasoning and encourage including such arguments in memos. Maybe the government should have an &#8220;Office of Moral Counsel.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Jimmy Mac</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/04/02/john-yoo-war-criminal/#comment-17510</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jimmy Mac]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 17:48:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=2194#comment-17510</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[From the Declaration of Independence:

“That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. ……… But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.”

If the Democratic Party screws up the chance to “throw off such Government …” then it will deserve the unforgiving disgust of history and the American people.  

The Congress is well on it was to already deserving such disgust for its effective cooperation with the government whose immoral actions were justified by John Yoo.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From the Declaration of Independence:</p>
<p>“That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. ……… But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.”</p>
<p>If the Democratic Party screws up the chance to “throw off such Government …” then it will deserve the unforgiving disgust of history and the American people.  </p>
<p>The Congress is well on it was to already deserving such disgust for its effective cooperation with the government whose immoral actions were justified by John Yoo.</p>
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		<title>By: Morning's Minion</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/04/02/john-yoo-war-criminal/#comment-17508</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Morning's Minion]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 17:39:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=2194#comment-17508</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Third: you need to understand formal cooperation with evil. Yoo, by stating the positions he did in favor of an intrinsically evil act, was formally cooperating with evil. And-- given his influence on actual policy-- his proximity was close enough to charge him with war crimes.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Third: you need to understand formal cooperation with evil. Yoo, by stating the positions he did in favor of an intrinsically evil act, was formally cooperating with evil. And&#8211; given his influence on actual policy&#8211; his proximity was close enough to charge him with war crimes.</p>
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		<title>By: Third</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/04/02/john-yoo-war-criminal/#comment-17506</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Third]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 17:23:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=2194#comment-17506</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yoo&#039;s culpability doesn&#039;t rest with his employer&#039;s private intentions.
Yoo&#039;s memo was amoral.

I have given this topic a lot of thought and I think Yoo&#039;s moral culpability depends on his belief, at the time, of how likely it was for his memo to be used for immoral purposes.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yoo&#8217;s culpability doesn&#8217;t rest with his employer&#8217;s private intentions.<br />
Yoo&#8217;s memo was amoral.</p>
<p>I have given this topic a lot of thought and I think Yoo&#8217;s moral culpability depends on his belief, at the time, of how likely it was for his memo to be used for immoral purposes.</p>
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		<title>By: Liam</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/04/02/john-yoo-war-criminal/#comment-17480</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Liam]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 14:25:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=2194#comment-17480</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What Yoo did is not quite what ordinary lawyers do in their day to day work, as it were.

First, his clients *knew* the position was quite at odds with prior advice (which they were seeking to change) and went to great lengths to obtain a plausible-deniability legal Potemkin village. Such a village deserves all the legal respect of form over substance: none.

Second, Yoo is not obliged to render a morally repugnant legally opinion, and had the ready option of resigning without detriment to his client.

Bottom line: that was beyond vile.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What Yoo did is not quite what ordinary lawyers do in their day to day work, as it were.</p>
<p>First, his clients *knew* the position was quite at odds with prior advice (which they were seeking to change) and went to great lengths to obtain a plausible-deniability legal Potemkin village. Such a village deserves all the legal respect of form over substance: none.</p>
<p>Second, Yoo is not obliged to render a morally repugnant legally opinion, and had the ready option of resigning without detriment to his client.</p>
<p>Bottom line: that was beyond vile.</p>
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		<title>By: G. Alkon</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/04/02/john-yoo-war-criminal/#comment-17470</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[G. Alkon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 03:38:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=2194#comment-17470</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Shaw is sadly making a legitimate point.

Yoo may be abusing the constitution, but if that is so, the inherently nationalist bias of the document invites such constructions.  The state, after all, must be saved, or else the constitution is null and void.  

The imperative of national security is quite real, from the perspective of U.S. law.   How could it not be?

It is no accident that the U.S. has committed several genocide-level crimes against those outside constitutional protection, against those who -- by whatever logic -- are deemed a threat to the existence of the state.

Was the conversion of North Vietnam into a defoliated free-fire zone unconstitutional?  Was carpet-bombing and killing 2 million Vietnamese unconstitutional?  

I&#039;m no legal expert, but I&#039;d bet that is a hard argument to make.

Of course, the fact that it is constitutional does not make it right. 

But as we see from Shaw and McClarey, those who want to excuse the barbarism of Yoo can find some resources in the foundations of national law.



It is just not a Catholic logic.  It is the logic of literal, positivist nationalism.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shaw is sadly making a legitimate point.</p>
<p>Yoo may be abusing the constitution, but if that is so, the inherently nationalist bias of the document invites such constructions.  The state, after all, must be saved, or else the constitution is null and void.  </p>
<p>The imperative of national security is quite real, from the perspective of U.S. law.   How could it not be?</p>
<p>It is no accident that the U.S. has committed several genocide-level crimes against those outside constitutional protection, against those who &#8212; by whatever logic &#8212; are deemed a threat to the existence of the state.</p>
<p>Was the conversion of North Vietnam into a defoliated free-fire zone unconstitutional?  Was carpet-bombing and killing 2 million Vietnamese unconstitutional?  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m no legal expert, but I&#8217;d bet that is a hard argument to make.</p>
<p>Of course, the fact that it is constitutional does not make it right. </p>
<p>But as we see from Shaw and McClarey, those who want to excuse the barbarism of Yoo can find some resources in the foundations of national law.</p>
<p>It is just not a Catholic logic.  It is the logic of literal, positivist nationalism.</p>
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