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	<title>Comments on: Americans are Switching Faiths</title>
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	<description>Catholic perspectives on culture, society, and politics</description>
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		<title>By: Spirit of Vatican II</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/02/25/americans-are-switching-faiths/#comment-13827</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Spirit of Vatican II]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 07:35:23 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Here is the chilling article: http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/church-is-paying-a-high-price-for-its-celibacy-rule-1297042.html]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here is the chilling article: <a href="http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/church-is-paying-a-high-price-for-its-celibacy-rule-1297042.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/church-is-paying-a-high-price-for-its-celibacy-rule-1297042.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Spirit of Vatican II</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/02/25/americans-are-switching-faiths/#comment-13826</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Spirit of Vatican II]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 07:34:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=1965#comment-13826</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Metaphysics, the analogy of being, etc. are very fancy items. Let us not put too much eggs, even intellectually, in that basket, which is stamped with the culture of the past and is ill-adapted to contemporary pluralism and linguistic-historical awareness.

Meanwhile, what a church needs is a vibrant, participative community -- and this is frustrated by the bad structure of the RCC. As Lamennais said, &quot;Centralization means apoplexy at the center and paralysis in the periphery&quot;. Our Church preaches subsidiarity to society but has failed to enact it itself. Episcopal collegiality, respect for the community of theologians, organization of the laity etc. etc. are all bypassed in the name of mass rallies or of jumped-up neoconservative movements like Opus Dei, Legionaries of Christ, Communio e liberazione. 

The American Church will go the same way as the Irish Church, the Canadian Church, the Dutch Church and the Basque Church, if the laity cannot organize themselves, in the manner promoted by Leonard Swidler in his call for an American Church Council.

I will post a chilling article on the Irish Church.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Metaphysics, the analogy of being, etc. are very fancy items. Let us not put too much eggs, even intellectually, in that basket, which is stamped with the culture of the past and is ill-adapted to contemporary pluralism and linguistic-historical awareness.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, what a church needs is a vibrant, participative community &#8212; and this is frustrated by the bad structure of the RCC. As Lamennais said, &#8220;Centralization means apoplexy at the center and paralysis in the periphery&#8221;. Our Church preaches subsidiarity to society but has failed to enact it itself. Episcopal collegiality, respect for the community of theologians, organization of the laity etc. etc. are all bypassed in the name of mass rallies or of jumped-up neoconservative movements like Opus Dei, Legionaries of Christ, Communio e liberazione. </p>
<p>The American Church will go the same way as the Irish Church, the Canadian Church, the Dutch Church and the Basque Church, if the laity cannot organize themselves, in the manner promoted by Leonard Swidler in his call for an American Church Council.</p>
<p>I will post a chilling article on the Irish Church.</p>
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		<title>By: David Bennett</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/02/25/americans-are-switching-faiths/#comment-13813</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Bennett]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 00:56:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=1965#comment-13813</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Kurt,

Your information reminds me of a conversation I had with a professor and fellow student at an Episcopal seminary, which I attended for a quarter for post-Master&#039;s work. The seminarian said he wanted to work with &quot;post-college age&quot; people, in their mid-to-late 20s. The professor reminded him that not everybody goes to college, to which the seminarian replied, &quot;oh, these days everybody does,&quot; to which I replied, &quot;no they don&#039;t.&quot; He literally could not believe that most people in our area (central and southern Ohio) didn&#039;t have a college degree, probably because he rarely met, let alone knew, someone who wasn&#039;t like him. It is hard to reach out to those whom you can&#039;t even begin to identify with. And I say this as someone who (despite being raised in a middle-class area where very few went to college) has trouble reaching out to the non-college educated. I admit it.

I agree with Kurt. Perhaps the reason for leaving is because of pastoral issues, not academic/philosophical ones (or likely a little bit of both, with some strong societal secularism mixed in).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kurt,</p>
<p>Your information reminds me of a conversation I had with a professor and fellow student at an Episcopal seminary, which I attended for a quarter for post-Master&#8217;s work. The seminarian said he wanted to work with &#8220;post-college age&#8221; people, in their mid-to-late 20s. The professor reminded him that not everybody goes to college, to which the seminarian replied, &#8220;oh, these days everybody does,&#8221; to which I replied, &#8220;no they don&#8217;t.&#8221; He literally could not believe that most people in our area (central and southern Ohio) didn&#8217;t have a college degree, probably because he rarely met, let alone knew, someone who wasn&#8217;t like him. It is hard to reach out to those whom you can&#8217;t even begin to identify with. And I say this as someone who (despite being raised in a middle-class area where very few went to college) has trouble reaching out to the non-college educated. I admit it.</p>
<p>I agree with Kurt. Perhaps the reason for leaving is because of pastoral issues, not academic/philosophical ones (or likely a little bit of both, with some strong societal secularism mixed in).</p>
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		<title>By: Stefan Eltgroth</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/02/25/americans-are-switching-faiths/#comment-13807</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Stefan Eltgroth]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Feb 2008 21:34:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=1965#comment-13807</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As a former Episcopalian, recently recieved into the RC church in 2004, the Catholic retention problem is obvious. For most Catholics, their religion is something they inherit not choose.  They have never been challenged with the necessity to make this their own faith, &quot;Conservative&quot; or &#039;Liberal&quot;.  They have grown up in an institution which requires nothing, expects nothing, inspires nothing.  They call themselves &quot;Catholic&quot; like an ethnic identity, like &quot;Irish&quot; or &quot;Polish&quot;.  They see Catholics, espically their parents with the same values, opinions,and priorities as everyone else.  It has no importance in their lives.  Then they meet some Evangelical who is excited by their faith, knows and reads the Bible, and is taken to a church which is filled with people who are happy and excited to be there, and they are gone]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a former Episcopalian, recently recieved into the RC church in 2004, the Catholic retention problem is obvious. For most Catholics, their religion is something they inherit not choose.  They have never been challenged with the necessity to make this their own faith, &#8220;Conservative&#8221; or &#8216;Liberal&#8221;.  They have grown up in an institution which requires nothing, expects nothing, inspires nothing.  They call themselves &#8220;Catholic&#8221; like an ethnic identity, like &#8220;Irish&#8221; or &#8220;Polish&#8221;.  They see Catholics, espically their parents with the same values, opinions,and priorities as everyone else.  It has no importance in their lives.  Then they meet some Evangelical who is excited by their faith, knows and reads the Bible, and is taken to a church which is filled with people who are happy and excited to be there, and they are gone</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/02/25/americans-are-switching-faiths/#comment-13797</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Feb 2008 20:05:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=1965#comment-13797</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[How has no one mentioned the sex-abuse scandal of the last decade? Nothing has shaken the faithful like a loss of faith in their pastoral leaders. While Thomistic philosophy would do a better job of educating Catholics, I&#039;m shocked that no one is correlating the loss in revenue, changes in tithing practices, and general discomfort mainstream Catholics (those who don&#039;t read a blog like this) feel towards their bishops.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How has no one mentioned the sex-abuse scandal of the last decade? Nothing has shaken the faithful like a loss of faith in their pastoral leaders. While Thomistic philosophy would do a better job of educating Catholics, I&#8217;m shocked that no one is correlating the loss in revenue, changes in tithing practices, and general discomfort mainstream Catholics (those who don&#8217;t read a blog like this) feel towards their bishops.</p>
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		<title>By: David Bennett</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/02/25/americans-are-switching-faiths/#comment-13788</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Bennett]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Feb 2008 19:29:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=1965#comment-13788</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think Kurt is onto something...

I also think it is difficult to pin down reasons for church membership trends.
Part of this could be that some people were not really that &quot;Catholic&quot; to
begin with, but are now counted as &quot;ex&quot; Catholics. I remember on a call-in
show a guy identified as an Irish Catholic, later saying he was an
atheist. I suppose technically having been baptized as an infant, he may
be Catholic, but I would think becoming an atheist amounts to being
outside the church, an automatic excommunication due to apostasy. I suppose technically he is an ex-Catholic, but perhaps in the same way I am an &quot;ex-Soccer player&quot; since I played 5 soccer games for a junior league when I was in 5th grade.

The ex-Catholics I know left for rather pragmatic, rather than academic/philosophical/theological reasons. They wanted a divorce, wanted to use birth control without guilt, disliked certain Catholic doctrines and morals, wanted to be ordained but were not able to do so in the Catholic Church,  and thought their parishes were asking for too much money. Some just found the mega church down the road to be more exciting, the local Episcopal church more liberal theologically, or the evangelical church in town more genuine and less hypocritical. Granted, because of poor catechesis, many of these folks did not reject actual Catholic Teaching, but a caricature of it, but nonetheless, they left the Church because it wasn&#039;t always easy or fun to remain Catholic, and because fewer cultural and social pressures exist to remain Catholic these days as in the past.  I expect there will continue to be a lot more Catholics leave the fold, especially as there seems to no longer be a search for what is True and Good, but what is fun and easy.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Kurt is onto something&#8230;</p>
<p>I also think it is difficult to pin down reasons for church membership trends.<br />
Part of this could be that some people were not really that &#8220;Catholic&#8221; to<br />
begin with, but are now counted as &#8220;ex&#8221; Catholics. I remember on a call-in<br />
show a guy identified as an Irish Catholic, later saying he was an<br />
atheist. I suppose technically having been baptized as an infant, he may<br />
be Catholic, but I would think becoming an atheist amounts to being<br />
outside the church, an automatic excommunication due to apostasy. I suppose technically he is an ex-Catholic, but perhaps in the same way I am an &#8220;ex-Soccer player&#8221; since I played 5 soccer games for a junior league when I was in 5th grade.</p>
<p>The ex-Catholics I know left for rather pragmatic, rather than academic/philosophical/theological reasons. They wanted a divorce, wanted to use birth control without guilt, disliked certain Catholic doctrines and morals, wanted to be ordained but were not able to do so in the Catholic Church,  and thought their parishes were asking for too much money. Some just found the mega church down the road to be more exciting, the local Episcopal church more liberal theologically, or the evangelical church in town more genuine and less hypocritical. Granted, because of poor catechesis, many of these folks did not reject actual Catholic Teaching, but a caricature of it, but nonetheless, they left the Church because it wasn&#8217;t always easy or fun to remain Catholic, and because fewer cultural and social pressures exist to remain Catholic these days as in the past.  I expect there will continue to be a lot more Catholics leave the fold, especially as there seems to no longer be a search for what is True and Good, but what is fun and easy.</p>
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		<title>By: Kurt</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/02/25/americans-are-switching-faiths/#comment-13783</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kurt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Feb 2008 18:53:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=1965#comment-13783</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Gerald L. Campbell Says: 
The centerpiece of a Catholic University used to be Thomistic philosophy. At Gonzaga U, Saint Louis U., Georgetown U. and Catholic U. where I attended, ALL undergraduates were required to take 18 hours of Thomistic philosophy. In addition, 12 hours of Catholic theology — NOT religion — were required.&quot;

As economic conservatives hold that if you make the social elite even more wealthy, prosperity &#039;trickles down&#039; so is there a theory among conservative Catholics that if the social and economic elite are evangelized, faith and grace will &#039;trickle down.&#039;

I think it is this theory that has caused some of the damage we now suffer.  Less than 25% of Catholics have a college degree.  While cases can be cited of heroic priests who minister to the less well off members of society, the lack of pastoral care of the poor, workers, immigrants and the socially marginalized is a disgrace.  

The great numbers of former Catholics are not persons who left in disgust or over some dramatic issue but socially unimportant people who were quietly ignored by the Church and her pastors and slipped away unnoticed due to inattention.  

Colleen Carroll, a conservative Catholic author recently wrote a book that she described as a study of young Catholic adults and what she termed as their return to tradition and conservative values.  Every subject she considered was a college students or graduate, as if the non-college 75% of Catholic young adults do not exist.  Imagine, 75% invisible!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Gerald L. Campbell Says:<br />
The centerpiece of a Catholic University used to be Thomistic philosophy. At Gonzaga U, Saint Louis U., Georgetown U. and Catholic U. where I attended, ALL undergraduates were required to take 18 hours of Thomistic philosophy. In addition, 12 hours of Catholic theology — NOT religion — were required.&#8221;</p>
<p>As economic conservatives hold that if you make the social elite even more wealthy, prosperity &#8216;trickles down&#8217; so is there a theory among conservative Catholics that if the social and economic elite are evangelized, faith and grace will &#8216;trickle down.&#8217;</p>
<p>I think it is this theory that has caused some of the damage we now suffer.  Less than 25% of Catholics have a college degree.  While cases can be cited of heroic priests who minister to the less well off members of society, the lack of pastoral care of the poor, workers, immigrants and the socially marginalized is a disgrace.  </p>
<p>The great numbers of former Catholics are not persons who left in disgust or over some dramatic issue but socially unimportant people who were quietly ignored by the Church and her pastors and slipped away unnoticed due to inattention.  </p>
<p>Colleen Carroll, a conservative Catholic author recently wrote a book that she described as a study of young Catholic adults and what she termed as their return to tradition and conservative values.  Every subject she considered was a college students or graduate, as if the non-college 75% of Catholic young adults do not exist.  Imagine, 75% invisible!</p>
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		<title>By: Gerald L. Campbell</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/02/25/americans-are-switching-faiths/#comment-13773</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gerald L. Campbell]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Feb 2008 16:09:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=1965#comment-13773</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Spirit of Vatican II,

I can&#039;t really speak to your question about the eclipse of Rahner.  I recall my theologian friends thought highly of him.  But what has happened since the seventies has escaped me, probably because I moved away from teaching. 

As to Barth, have you read Balthasar&#039;s treatment of him in The &quot;Theology of Karl Barth.&quot;  Here is a case where the Thomistic analogy of being and the Barthian analogy of faith are set in critical relationship.  This, of course, goes to the question of the viability of the intellect and the person&#039;s access to truth.  I found this discussion on analogy helpful as a way to grasp what is going on in the world today, particularly as regards critical political issues.  For instance, part of the failure to frame the culture wars correctly lies with the inability to appreciate the analogy of being and its role in practical reason.  Thus we fail to make appropriate distinctions where necessary and end up demonizing individual behavior.  Why?  In large measure we do so because we have failed in the intellectual order and thus have no choice but to accept prejudice and sentiment as the primary foundation of moral judgment.  Univocal thinking is too much with us.  Indeed, our view of ethical behavior has been reduced to little more than an oily smear!  There are no clear distinctions, but an abundance of judgment.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Spirit of Vatican II,</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t really speak to your question about the eclipse of Rahner.  I recall my theologian friends thought highly of him.  But what has happened since the seventies has escaped me, probably because I moved away from teaching. </p>
<p>As to Barth, have you read Balthasar&#8217;s treatment of him in The &#8220;Theology of Karl Barth.&#8221;  Here is a case where the Thomistic analogy of being and the Barthian analogy of faith are set in critical relationship.  This, of course, goes to the question of the viability of the intellect and the person&#8217;s access to truth.  I found this discussion on analogy helpful as a way to grasp what is going on in the world today, particularly as regards critical political issues.  For instance, part of the failure to frame the culture wars correctly lies with the inability to appreciate the analogy of being and its role in practical reason.  Thus we fail to make appropriate distinctions where necessary and end up demonizing individual behavior.  Why?  In large measure we do so because we have failed in the intellectual order and thus have no choice but to accept prejudice and sentiment as the primary foundation of moral judgment.  Univocal thinking is too much with us.  Indeed, our view of ethical behavior has been reduced to little more than an oily smear!  There are no clear distinctions, but an abundance of judgment.</p>
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		<title>By: Spirit of Vatican II</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/02/25/americans-are-switching-faiths/#comment-13756</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Spirit of Vatican II]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Feb 2008 08:19:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=1965#comment-13756</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Nice discussion, Mark D and Mr Campbell. Do you not think that the total eclipse of Karl Rahner, who contributed exquisitely to the retrieval and aggiornamento of Thomist wisdom is part of the picture? Personally I think Scripture rather than Metaphysics is the spinal column of theology, so I like Barth rather more than Rahner. But Thomist metaphysics lives on and flourishes when brought into mutual critical engagement with Kant/Hegel, Heidegger et al., and with Analytical Philosophy (where there is a very strong intellectual engagement with Thomist themes, but often in a way that is rather estranged from the broad scriptural perspectives of church theology.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice discussion, Mark D and Mr Campbell. Do you not think that the total eclipse of Karl Rahner, who contributed exquisitely to the retrieval and aggiornamento of Thomist wisdom is part of the picture? Personally I think Scripture rather than Metaphysics is the spinal column of theology, so I like Barth rather more than Rahner. But Thomist metaphysics lives on and flourishes when brought into mutual critical engagement with Kant/Hegel, Heidegger et al., and with Analytical Philosophy (where there is a very strong intellectual engagement with Thomist themes, but often in a way that is rather estranged from the broad scriptural perspectives of church theology.)</p>
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		<title>By: Mark D.</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/02/25/americans-are-switching-faiths/#comment-13752</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark D.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Feb 2008 05:50:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=1965#comment-13752</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Gerald,

I agree totally. The metaphysical thinking of De esse et essentia, for example,  is simply unsurpassed in the history of philosophy,  as is the Thomistic notion of the analogy of being. These truths and their understanding are central to the Western intellectual endeavor.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gerald,</p>
<p>I agree totally. The metaphysical thinking of De esse et essentia, for example,  is simply unsurpassed in the history of philosophy,  as is the Thomistic notion of the analogy of being. These truths and their understanding are central to the Western intellectual endeavor.</p>
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		<title>By: Eddie</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/02/25/americans-are-switching-faiths/#comment-13751</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Eddie]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Feb 2008 05:44:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=1965#comment-13751</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree with Mike J. on every point; I&#039;m gen x also, and received poor to very poor catechesis in Catholic schools, even though the priests in the diocese were quite faithful. I understand things have changed for the better at many of these schools in recent years; nevertheless my personal experiences and almost all of the anecdotal evidence I&#039;ve encountered suggests that very little of the Fath was communicated to people of my generation. 

As a side note, my original error was even worse, if it&#039;s true that roughly 1 in 10 Americans are ex-catholics, 10/33 would put the Church above the national average of 25% in terms of people changing faiths.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Mike J. on every point; I&#8217;m gen x also, and received poor to very poor catechesis in Catholic schools, even though the priests in the diocese were quite faithful. I understand things have changed for the better at many of these schools in recent years; nevertheless my personal experiences and almost all of the anecdotal evidence I&#8217;ve encountered suggests that very little of the Fath was communicated to people of my generation. </p>
<p>As a side note, my original error was even worse, if it&#8217;s true that roughly 1 in 10 Americans are ex-catholics, 10/33 would put the Church above the national average of 25% in terms of people changing faiths.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike J.</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/02/25/americans-are-switching-faiths/#comment-13749</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike J.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Feb 2008 05:26:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=1965#comment-13749</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I wasn&#039;t surprised by the statistics in the story. If my upbringing was any indication (Joliet diocese near Chicago, 80s-90s i.e. gen x), and it seems to be from many people I&#039;ve spoken to, then this is the reaping of the poor catechesis and formation (not to mention total disregard for discipline and open dissent) that has been sown for years following the second Vatican council. Not that the council is at fault, far from it, I think it&#039;s just that no one quite knew what to do after the council. The common question being: do we still believe that? While the problems of academy are likely linked and part of this whole situation, I&#039;d suggest that these things start sooner than university level training.

-Mike]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wasn&#8217;t surprised by the statistics in the story. If my upbringing was any indication (Joliet diocese near Chicago, 80s-90s i.e. gen x), and it seems to be from many people I&#8217;ve spoken to, then this is the reaping of the poor catechesis and formation (not to mention total disregard for discipline and open dissent) that has been sown for years following the second Vatican council. Not that the council is at fault, far from it, I think it&#8217;s just that no one quite knew what to do after the council. The common question being: do we still believe that? While the problems of academy are likely linked and part of this whole situation, I&#8217;d suggest that these things start sooner than university level training.</p>
<p>-Mike</p>
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