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	<title>Comments on: The APA and Homosexuality</title>
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	<description>Catholic perspectives on culture, society, and politics</description>
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		<title>By: Spirit of Vatican II</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/02/17/the-apa-and-homosexuality/#comment-13760</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Spirit of Vatican II]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Feb 2008 09:02:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2008/02/17/the-apa-and-homosexuality/#comment-13760</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[By the way, the fact that slavery may benefit the slave is not a good argument for saying it is not evil. Prostitution often benefits prostitutes, but that is not necessarily a moral justification of it. Indeed such argument is on the dangerous slippery slope of consequentialism, very much used today in order to justify torture, which is claimed, like slavery, not to be &quot;intrinsically&quot; evil, so that it can become something permissible when a good is in view. Catholic morality permits the choice of a lesser evil, but it never permits doing evil that good may come of it. Your argument that good results justify slavery is arguing not only that slavery is not intrinsically evil but that it is morally neutral and can be a good in some cases. It ties in with reactionaries who argue that negro slaves in the US very actually very happy, as they sang their spirituals and respected their white masters and mistresses etc. Since human rights are invisible they are easily missed by those who do not want to see them. To enforce mandatory celibacy on gays, as you clearly wish to do, is to my mind to show little sensitivity to human rights; in practice it has condemned huge numbers of Catholic gays to loneliness, neurosis, or to a sexual life haunted by guilt and shame and never flourishing in a stable relationship. Many Catholic gays feel very cheated today as they see gay couples flourishing all about them with the blessing of their families and even of their churches. The Church has clearly made terrible mistakes, criminal mistakes in its dealing with homosexuality throughout history -- torturing and murdering gays for centuries, urging their imprisonment up to our own time -- and now only very belatedly and grudgingly suggesting that gays should not be exposed to unjust discrimination. And you say, blandly and blindly, that &quot;the Church&#039;s teaching has never changed&quot;....]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By the way, the fact that slavery may benefit the slave is not a good argument for saying it is not evil. Prostitution often benefits prostitutes, but that is not necessarily a moral justification of it. Indeed such argument is on the dangerous slippery slope of consequentialism, very much used today in order to justify torture, which is claimed, like slavery, not to be &#8220;intrinsically&#8221; evil, so that it can become something permissible when a good is in view. Catholic morality permits the choice of a lesser evil, but it never permits doing evil that good may come of it. Your argument that good results justify slavery is arguing not only that slavery is not intrinsically evil but that it is morally neutral and can be a good in some cases. It ties in with reactionaries who argue that negro slaves in the US very actually very happy, as they sang their spirituals and respected their white masters and mistresses etc. Since human rights are invisible they are easily missed by those who do not want to see them. To enforce mandatory celibacy on gays, as you clearly wish to do, is to my mind to show little sensitivity to human rights; in practice it has condemned huge numbers of Catholic gays to loneliness, neurosis, or to a sexual life haunted by guilt and shame and never flourishing in a stable relationship. Many Catholic gays feel very cheated today as they see gay couples flourishing all about them with the blessing of their families and even of their churches. The Church has clearly made terrible mistakes, criminal mistakes in its dealing with homosexuality throughout history &#8212; torturing and murdering gays for centuries, urging their imprisonment up to our own time &#8212; and now only very belatedly and grudgingly suggesting that gays should not be exposed to unjust discrimination. And you say, blandly and blindly, that &#8220;the Church&#8217;s teaching has never changed&#8221;&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Spirit of Vatican II</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/02/17/the-apa-and-homosexuality/#comment-13759</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Spirit of Vatican II]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Feb 2008 08:50:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2008/02/17/the-apa-and-homosexuality/#comment-13759</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[By the way &quot;intrinsically evil&quot; is a red herring. &quot;It is not contrary to natural law for a slave to be bought and sold&quot; is what the Church taught (and what even Popes has practiced); now the Church no longer teaches that. Or are you aware of some situation in which the Church says its OK to buy a slave today? Your adherence to the false notion that church official teaching never changes -- which is magisterial fundamentalism, and has exactly the same hermeneutic structure as biblical fundamentalism -- has led you and Cardinal Dulles (whose university is partly funded by slave-owner bequests) to adopt positions very much at variance with common sense and with orthodox Catholic thinking today.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By the way &#8220;intrinsically evil&#8221; is a red herring. &#8220;It is not contrary to natural law for a slave to be bought and sold&#8221; is what the Church taught (and what even Popes has practiced); now the Church no longer teaches that. Or are you aware of some situation in which the Church says its OK to buy a slave today? Your adherence to the false notion that church official teaching never changes &#8212; which is magisterial fundamentalism, and has exactly the same hermeneutic structure as biblical fundamentalism &#8212; has led you and Cardinal Dulles (whose university is partly funded by slave-owner bequests) to adopt positions very much at variance with common sense and with orthodox Catholic thinking today.</p>
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		<title>By: Spirit of Vatican II</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/02/17/the-apa-and-homosexuality/#comment-13758</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Spirit of Vatican II]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Feb 2008 08:40:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2008/02/17/the-apa-and-homosexuality/#comment-13758</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Nothing new to me in what you say there, Matt. It&#039;s the Cardinal Dulles line. Nonetheless, the fact that US bishops and theologians in the 19th century argued that the possession of slaves was OK and that the Vatican had only condemned slave trading (time had erased the original injustice of that!) means in concrete that the Church betrayed the human rights of many people and cast itself in a shameful role. Today the Church is committing exactly the same crime against gays, with exactly the same time-lag from more enlightened ideas. In both cases the Church is seen as trampling on human rights. The only difference I can see is that the nasty anti-gay documents of the Vatican in 1975 and 1986 do not bear the papal signature -- whereas Pius IX signed the shameful 1866 declaration; perhaps popes learned some caution from the embarrassments of their 19th century predecessors. See my discussion of this at http://josephsoleary.typepad.com/my_weblog/2008/02/cardinal-avery.html]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nothing new to me in what you say there, Matt. It&#8217;s the Cardinal Dulles line. Nonetheless, the fact that US bishops and theologians in the 19th century argued that the possession of slaves was OK and that the Vatican had only condemned slave trading (time had erased the original injustice of that!) means in concrete that the Church betrayed the human rights of many people and cast itself in a shameful role. Today the Church is committing exactly the same crime against gays, with exactly the same time-lag from more enlightened ideas. In both cases the Church is seen as trampling on human rights. The only difference I can see is that the nasty anti-gay documents of the Vatican in 1975 and 1986 do not bear the papal signature &#8212; whereas Pius IX signed the shameful 1866 declaration; perhaps popes learned some caution from the embarrassments of their 19th century predecessors. See my discussion of this at <a href="http://josephsoleary.typepad.com/my_weblog/2008/02/cardinal-avery.html" rel="nofollow">http://josephsoleary.typepad.com/my_weblog/2008/02/cardinal-avery.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Matt M</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/02/17/the-apa-and-homosexuality/#comment-13511</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Matt M]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Feb 2008 21:17:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2008/02/17/the-apa-and-homosexuality/#comment-13511</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Spirit of VII,

You have to read the Church&#039;s documents in context and not prooftext them to try and attack the Church&#039;s teaching.

In 1839, the Holy Father Pope Gregory XVI issued the apostolic letter &lt;a href=&quot;&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;/a&gt; addressing specifically Black slavery as practiced in the US: &lt;i&gt;We reprove, then, by virtue of Our Apostolic Authority, all the practices abovementioned as absolutely unworthy of the Christian name. By the same Authority We prohibit and strictly forbid any Ecclesiastic or lay person from presuming to defend as permissible this traffic in Blacks under no matter what pretext or excuse, or from publishing or teaching in any manner whatsoever, in public or privately, opinions contrary to what We have set forth in this Apostolic Letter.&lt;/i&gt;

In 1866, the Holy Office issued an opinion addressing the situation of all forms of slavery (sadly I have only an excerpt, if you have the whole letter available online please provide a link:
&lt;i&gt;&quot;Slavery itself, considered as such in its essential nature, is not at all contrary to the natural and divine law, and there can be several just titles of slavery and these are referred to by approved theologians and commentators of the sacred canons. It is not contrary to the natural and divine law for a slave to be sold, bought, exchanged or given. The purchaser should carefully examine whether the slave who is put up for sale has been justly or unjustly deprived of his liberty, and that the vendor should do nothing which might endanger the life, virtue, or Catholic faith of the slave.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

You can see that this letter identifies that there are &quot;just&quot; and &quot;unjust&quot; forms of slavery.  If you study the bible and the teachings of the Church throughout the ages, you will see that there are various forms of servitude both voluntary and involuntary.  You can&#039;t simply lump them all together, as some of them actually benefit the slavery in the context of that era.  Therefore slavery as such is not intrinsicly evil.  The Church has developed it&#039;s prudential judgement in this area in relation to the modern world, to the current state of universal condemnation.  One could reasonably argue that the Church ought to have acted more strenuously against all forms of servitude in earlier times, and that is a fair point, but it does not make your point valid.

The same can not be said with regard to homosexual acts which are intrinsicly evil, and inclination which is by it&#039;s nature disordered.  THe Church has developed it&#039;s judgement on how to best minister to those suffering from such afflictions, but that does not make such acts condonable, nor will it ever change it&#039;s teaching.

God Bless,

Matt]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Spirit of VII,</p>
<p>You have to read the Church&#8217;s documents in context and not prooftext them to try and attack the Church&#8217;s teaching.</p>
<p>In 1839, the Holy Father Pope Gregory XVI issued the apostolic letter <a href="" rel="nofollow"></a> addressing specifically Black slavery as practiced in the US: <i>We reprove, then, by virtue of Our Apostolic Authority, all the practices abovementioned as absolutely unworthy of the Christian name. By the same Authority We prohibit and strictly forbid any Ecclesiastic or lay person from presuming to defend as permissible this traffic in Blacks under no matter what pretext or excuse, or from publishing or teaching in any manner whatsoever, in public or privately, opinions contrary to what We have set forth in this Apostolic Letter.</i></p>
<p>In 1866, the Holy Office issued an opinion addressing the situation of all forms of slavery (sadly I have only an excerpt, if you have the whole letter available online please provide a link:<br />
<i>&#8220;Slavery itself, considered as such in its essential nature, is not at all contrary to the natural and divine law, and there can be several just titles of slavery and these are referred to by approved theologians and commentators of the sacred canons. It is not contrary to the natural and divine law for a slave to be sold, bought, exchanged or given. The purchaser should carefully examine whether the slave who is put up for sale has been justly or unjustly deprived of his liberty, and that the vendor should do nothing which might endanger the life, virtue, or Catholic faith of the slave.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>You can see that this letter identifies that there are &#8220;just&#8221; and &#8220;unjust&#8221; forms of slavery.  If you study the bible and the teachings of the Church throughout the ages, you will see that there are various forms of servitude both voluntary and involuntary.  You can&#8217;t simply lump them all together, as some of them actually benefit the slavery in the context of that era.  Therefore slavery as such is not intrinsicly evil.  The Church has developed it&#8217;s prudential judgement in this area in relation to the modern world, to the current state of universal condemnation.  One could reasonably argue that the Church ought to have acted more strenuously against all forms of servitude in earlier times, and that is a fair point, but it does not make your point valid.</p>
<p>The same can not be said with regard to homosexual acts which are intrinsicly evil, and inclination which is by it&#8217;s nature disordered.  THe Church has developed it&#8217;s judgement on how to best minister to those suffering from such afflictions, but that does not make such acts condonable, nor will it ever change it&#8217;s teaching.</p>
<p>God Bless,</p>
<p>Matt</p>
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		<title>By: Spirit of Vatican II</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/02/17/the-apa-and-homosexuality/#comment-13447</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Spirit of Vatican II]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Feb 2008 05:14:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2008/02/17/the-apa-and-homosexuality/#comment-13447</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As a ten year old boy I learned the expression, Roma locuta est, causa finita est. But of course, whatever its meaning on Augustine&#039;s lips in one of the twists and turns of the Pelagian controversy, it would be naive and disingenuous to believe that it solves every theological problem. When the Holy Office declared in 1866 that slavery was not at all incompatible with natural and divine law, some American bishops and theologians said &quot;causa finita est&quot; -- to the great detriment not only of the freedom of those whose bodies were enslaved, but also to the detriment of the salvation of souls.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a ten year old boy I learned the expression, Roma locuta est, causa finita est. But of course, whatever its meaning on Augustine&#8217;s lips in one of the twists and turns of the Pelagian controversy, it would be naive and disingenuous to believe that it solves every theological problem. When the Holy Office declared in 1866 that slavery was not at all incompatible with natural and divine law, some American bishops and theologians said &#8220;causa finita est&#8221; &#8212; to the great detriment not only of the freedom of those whose bodies were enslaved, but also to the detriment of the salvation of souls.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt McDonald</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/02/17/the-apa-and-homosexuality/#comment-13333</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Matt McDonald]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Feb 2008 05:25:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2008/02/17/the-apa-and-homosexuality/#comment-13333</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[SVII,

the Church issues authoritative documents for a reason.  The whole point of theology and discussion is to SAVE SOULS, not as some intellectual exercise.  There&#039;s an old expression, which instructs the end of debate:

&quot;Roma locutus est, causa finis est&quot;.  Learn it, live it, love it, or one day you will rue it.

God Bless,

Matt]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SVII,</p>
<p>the Church issues authoritative documents for a reason.  The whole point of theology and discussion is to SAVE SOULS, not as some intellectual exercise.  There&#8217;s an old expression, which instructs the end of debate:</p>
<p>&#8220;Roma locutus est, causa finis est&#8221;.  Learn it, live it, love it, or one day you will rue it.</p>
<p>God Bless,</p>
<p>Matt</p>
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		<title>By: Spirit of Vatican II</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/02/17/the-apa-and-homosexuality/#comment-13165</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Spirit of Vatican II]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2008 09:18:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2008/02/17/the-apa-and-homosexuality/#comment-13165</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[PadreVic, my mail is josephsoleary@hotmail.com.

Matt, you notion of &quot;dissent&quot; is from a distant planet. If you were to open your mind to the great discipline of Theology -- which is a far far stranger landscape than you imagine -- you would, I think, find much not only to bemuse you but to enrich. The instant hostility to all theological questioning which has characterized the neocath blog movement from get-go must give pause to those churchmen who worry about orthodoxy. They have carried that worry to the point of strangling the Catholic mind and of encouraging outbreaks of sectarian hostility (as Cardinal Lehmann remarked of the recent CDF pronouncement).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PadreVic, my mail is <a href="mailto:josephsoleary@hotmail.com">josephsoleary@hotmail.com</a>.</p>
<p>Matt, you notion of &#8220;dissent&#8221; is from a distant planet. If you were to open your mind to the great discipline of Theology &#8212; which is a far far stranger landscape than you imagine &#8212; you would, I think, find much not only to bemuse you but to enrich. The instant hostility to all theological questioning which has characterized the neocath blog movement from get-go must give pause to those churchmen who worry about orthodoxy. They have carried that worry to the point of strangling the Catholic mind and of encouraging outbreaks of sectarian hostility (as Cardinal Lehmann remarked of the recent CDF pronouncement).</p>
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		<title>By: Matt McDonald</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/02/17/the-apa-and-homosexuality/#comment-13090</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Matt McDonald]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Feb 2008 18:38:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2008/02/17/the-apa-and-homosexuality/#comment-13090</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Padrevic.

my email is mightyduk@gmail.com

God Bless,

Matt]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Padrevic.</p>
<p>my email is <a href="mailto:mightyduk@gmail.com">mightyduk@gmail.com</a></p>
<p>God Bless,</p>
<p>Matt</p>
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		<title>By: PadreVic</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/02/17/the-apa-and-homosexuality/#comment-13069</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[PadreVic]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Feb 2008 17:20:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2008/02/17/the-apa-and-homosexuality/#comment-13069</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Matt &amp; SoVII
I have tried to contact each of you separately in your blog comments. If you can please respond. Thanks
sorry for the off topic comment

Enjoy Lent
peace to all]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt &amp; SoVII<br />
I have tried to contact each of you separately in your blog comments. If you can please respond. Thanks<br />
sorry for the off topic comment</p>
<p>Enjoy Lent<br />
peace to all</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Matt McDonald</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/02/17/the-apa-and-homosexuality/#comment-13003</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Matt McDonald]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Feb 2008 05:31:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2008/02/17/the-apa-and-homosexuality/#comment-13003</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[PadreVic,

don&#039;t tell me you dissent as well?

The Church has teachings, not &quot;situations&quot;.

God Bless,

Matt]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PadreVic,</p>
<p>don&#8217;t tell me you dissent as well?</p>
<p>The Church has teachings, not &#8220;situations&#8221;.</p>
<p>God Bless,</p>
<p>Matt</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Spirit of Vatican II</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/02/17/the-apa-and-homosexuality/#comment-12999</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Spirit of Vatican II]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Feb 2008 05:18:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2008/02/17/the-apa-and-homosexuality/#comment-12999</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oops, 207th.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops, 207th.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Spirit of Vatican II</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/02/17/the-apa-and-homosexuality/#comment-12998</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Spirit of Vatican II]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Feb 2008 05:16:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2008/02/17/the-apa-and-homosexuality/#comment-12998</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Cute, I just noticed that it&#039;s Newman&#039;s 206th birthday today. &quot;I toast to conscience first, then to the Pope&quot; he said.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cute, I just noticed that it&#8217;s Newman&#8217;s 206th birthday today. &#8220;I toast to conscience first, then to the Pope&#8221; he said.</p>
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