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Alex
A couple things. People saying they have done something does not indicate a pro or a con. Someone could be wearing a “I had an abortion” shirt to tell people they were sinners for all we know.
However, I do think there are people who are pro-abortion. The Chinese Government with its forced abortions being one. People who make money on abortions another.
But I think taking a comment out of context is all pretext and sometimes a comment is within a certain area of discussion. Keep that in mind.
“Someone could be wearing a ‘I had an abortion’ shirt to tell people they were sinners for all we know.”
Yeah, that’s *real* likely.
If nobody is pro-abortion, then nobody is pro-death-penalty or pro-war either.
Imagine someone arguing: “I’m not pro-war. I hate war. I just believe that it should be the president’s choice and that we should support whatever decision he ultimately makes. We have no right to tell the commander-in-chief what to do with his military.”
How about using opposition to the partial birth abortion ban in order to order to raise campaign funds? Would that be considered pro-abortion?
http://www.prolifeblogs.com/articles/archives/2006/10/post_5.php
I’m sure there are people who are pro-abortion. I’m just not one of them. As a former fetus, I oppose abortion. As a woman, I oppose abortion, too, because it hurts women and disempowers them. It makes it easy to believe lies men tell to get them into bed, and then they’re left hurt by jerks (who they never should have let between their legs!) and then because Mr. Jerk won’t step up to his share of responsibility, they take what they think is the easy way out. You should really check out http://www.abortionfacts.com if you think that abortion is just about choice, and that women are truly benefitted by having this procedure readily available. You can also check out my personal blog for more of my take on it: katsyfga.wordpress.com. If you’re really about supporting a woman’s “choice” why take it so hard when they choose abortion?
Kathy
katsyfga.wordpress.com
I have to agree with Henry. People who profit from abortions may be pro-. People who have gotten abortions may well be like Bush ’04 voters with a conscience: they held their nose and went through with it anyway.
I did get into an interesting discussion once with someone who said abortions should be encouraged for poor women. Pro-abortion? Pro-Eugenics? My sense it was the fringe of the movement talking, like a clinic bomber.
Hypothetical candidate:
“I am personally opposed to capital punishment. I take seriously the Church’s teaching that we should protect life from conception until natural death. Nevertheless, the majority of the citizens that I represent believe the death penalty is necessary in our criminal justice system to ensure public safety, a respect for the law, and a sense of justice – that there are certain crimes for which society demands offenders pay the ultimate price. My personal opposition to capital punishment driven by my religious beliefs cannot stand in the way of the common good.
“Therefore, not only will I not work to end the death penalty, but I will work to ensure that it remains an option in law for our citizens to impose on our most violent offenders. In addition, I will work to expand the crimes for which the death penalty may be imposed.”
Think that would fly with those promoting the “pro-choice” meme on here? Nah, me either.
Todd I really don’t mean this to be confrontational but do you think there are as many clinic bombers as women/couples who have opted for abortion for gender selection or to avoid birth defects? I’m guessing one fringe is much larger than the other.
Todd,
The abortion-as-eugenics line of thinking is more common than you might think, though it’s usually expressed privately.
Blackadder and Todd,
If you do some research into Planned Parenthood and Margaret Sanger, I think you’ll be unpleasantly surprised that abortion was promoted precisely for eugenics, and promoted to “people of color” so that there would be fewer of them and more whites. Of course, PP doesn’t advertise that little factoid much, but the fact remains that black women have proportionately more abortions that white women. But you won’t hear too many liberals and pro-abortion folks talking about that little bit of racism.
Kathy
But you won’t hear too many liberals and pro-abortion folks talking about that little bit of racism.
I’ll take a step further and suggest that you won’t hear many conservatives talking about that either. Racism has many modes.
Policraticus,
Touché. :-)
But all too often, when conservatives talk about things dealing with race, they are told to mind their own business, or it is spun into something anti-black. For instance, if a conservative said that abortion kills black babies, it would be spun that this conservative wants to keep black women “barefoot and pregnant” as it were, and not able to advance in life. Fortunately, I think Bill Cosby (or some other prominent African-American who cannot be scurrilously called conservative) has mentioned this, but unfortunately it is not promulgated.
Kathy
katsyfga.wordpress.com
Todd,
Certainly there are probably women who undergo abortion procedures out of desperation, “holding their noses” as it were. Just as certain desperate individuals smother their mentally handicapped child or their needy aging parents, etc. But I doubt these are the people showing off the clothing line! Can you imagine a chic, sexy clothing line with the words “I smothered my mentally retarded child to death!?” Alexam’s point, I believe, was simply to show that there are some people who actually support abortion; not that everyone who undergoes one wants to buy a t-shirt.
The question is: do most of these people have the resources to conceive of their abortions as acts of murder? Do they see it as they see the case with the retarded child? If so, would there really be the same kind of support? I believe it would take some serious personal evil to believe they are taking a life and want to flaunt it. The real tricky sin is perhaps the systematic willed ignorance, the clinging to structures that say in the face of common sense that it is not murder. Those images, by the way, frighten the hell out of me.
Pax Christi,
X-Cathedra,
I think there is a lot to your post–there are women out there (probably the overwhelming *minority*) who do not regret their abortions; and many more who do regret them but are working very hard to convince themselves (and everybody else) that they actually did make the right choice. “Methinks the lady doth protest too much.”
Kathy
Martin Luther King, Jesse Jackson and Black Genocide – Catholics in the Public Square — introduces several who are bringing attention to the issue of eugenics and abortion rates among African Americans.
BlackGenocide.com is a project of the African-American pro-life ministry Learn (“Life Education And Resource Network”). Founded by Rev. Johnny Hunter, it “publishes extensive data and research information on the racist origins of Planned Parenthood, it’s founder, Margaret Sanger, and the American Eugenics movement.” BlackGenocide.com seeks to bring attention of the Black community to the horror of abortion and what is in their mind the paramount “civil rights” issue of today.
Kathy, I wouldn’t be surprised at all. Decriminalized abortion, after all, was a trial balloon originally floated by the Republicans. You also don’t hear that many early feminists were opposed to abortion.
Tim, thanks for pointing out sex selectors. But birth defects? Severe ones I can see might entangle an otherwise well-formed conscience. Nobody wanted to adopt our daughter, not even the family that took her two older siblings.
I think there are a lot of nose-holders who are also ear-pluggers: they hope that the rhetoric they hear is true about the unborn not really being human beings. I think it’s not unlike torturers and torture apologists: deep down the moral people know its wrong, but they twist themselves into knots to deny it.
We know from the prevalance of alcoholism, drug abuse, sexual addiction, and child abuse that a lot of otherwise good people can compartmentalize their lives, tucking away the 5% or 10% evil that overwhelms their good judgment. I don’t doubt that similar things go on with many of those contemplating abortion.
While I see JPII’s point about abortion being the top civil rights issue of these times, I don’t quite agree with that. I would say it’s society’s most grave addiction and many pro-lifers are caught up in the co-dependency.
Todd,
Re: abortions to avoid birth defects. Just recently on one of my birth-related email lists, we’ve had a discussion about birth control and abortion, and a number of women had stories related to this topic. One woman was made to undergo pscyh. counseling when she refused to abort her baby, because the ultrasound showed the baby didn’t have a brain. The u/s was wrong–the baby is now a very smart 7-y/o. Another had contracted German measles while pregnant and was counseled to abort because of the higher risk of birth defects. She refused, and her baby is now the perfectly-healthy mother of 5 children. My grandma contracted German measles when pregnant w/1 of my uncles, and his “birth defects” included some deafness and sterility; he’s also diabetic (possibly due to the G.M.). A book I read mentioned a woman who had an abortion when told her daughter had no kidneys….but the u/s was again wrong–perfect kidneys. Another woman was at an increased risk of having a baby with genetic problems due to her age, so had a very high-quality u/s at 37 weeks gestation w/a specialist to rule out Down’s Syndrome and any heart problems the baby might have. The 90-minute u/s gave an all-clear–the baby didn’t seem to have either problem. A week later, her still-born daughter was born with Down’s syndrome, and her cause of intra-uterine death was the heart problem that she supposedly didn’t have.
No test is perfect; and ultrasound is not 100% reliable.
Kathy