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	<title>Comments on: Collective Punishment</title>
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	<description>Catholic perspectives on culture, society, and politics</description>
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		<title>By: dymphna</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/01/24/collective-punishment/#comment-10051</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[dymphna]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jan 2008 15:35:56 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[And what pray tell, are the Israelis supposed to do to make you happy? The Palestinians can&#039;t be trusted not to try to kill the very people who employ them, feed them and take care of them when they get sick.  Let&#039;s see how their Egyptian brothers handle them.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And what pray tell, are the Israelis supposed to do to make you happy? The Palestinians can&#8217;t be trusted not to try to kill the very people who employ them, feed them and take care of them when they get sick.  Let&#8217;s see how their Egyptian brothers handle them.</p>
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		<title>By: Abbey-Roads2 &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Old Testament Justice?</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/01/24/collective-punishment/#comment-10024</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Abbey-Roads2 &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Old Testament Justice?]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jan 2008 17:21:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=1738#comment-10024</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Vox Nova has a good commentary on the Israeli oppression of Gaza: Collective Punishment. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Vox Nova has a good commentary on the Israeli oppression of Gaza: Collective Punishment. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Stuart Buck</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/01/24/collective-punishment/#comment-10021</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Stuart Buck]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jan 2008 15:44:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=1738#comment-10021</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[HA is right, MM.  No one here is objecting to an informed critique of actual Calvinism.  People are objecting to the silly and uneducated propensity to slap the label &quot;Calvinism&quot; on anything that you don&#039;t like.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>HA is right, MM.  No one here is objecting to an informed critique of actual Calvinism.  People are objecting to the silly and uneducated propensity to slap the label &#8220;Calvinism&#8221; on anything that you don&#8217;t like.</p>
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		<title>By: HA</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/01/24/collective-punishment/#comment-10020</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[HA]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jan 2008 15:24:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=1738#comment-10020</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I hold no brief for Calvinism, which as you correctly pointed out, is a heresy. Calvinists have enough to answer for without someone twisting their already-twisted theology into something it isn&#039;t, and if you want to actually read up on what actual Calvinists believe -- as opposed to the bogeymen you&#039;ve set up in order to have something to beat the straw out of -- and rip it all apart, then go to town. 

Likewise, iF anyone doesn&#039;t like Catholicism, that&#039;s his thing. I&#039;ll do my best to show him he&#039;s wrong, but even if I can&#039;t, I still expect him to refrain from using it as a shorthand reference for everything he doesn&#039;t like about America, just because he&#039;s too lazy and sloppy to come up with a word that actually fits.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hold no brief for Calvinism, which as you correctly pointed out, is a heresy. Calvinists have enough to answer for without someone twisting their already-twisted theology into something it isn&#8217;t, and if you want to actually read up on what actual Calvinists believe &#8212; as opposed to the bogeymen you&#8217;ve set up in order to have something to beat the straw out of &#8212; and rip it all apart, then go to town. </p>
<p>Likewise, iF anyone doesn&#8217;t like Catholicism, that&#8217;s his thing. I&#8217;ll do my best to show him he&#8217;s wrong, but even if I can&#8217;t, I still expect him to refrain from using it as a shorthand reference for everything he doesn&#8217;t like about America, just because he&#8217;s too lazy and sloppy to come up with a word that actually fits.</p>
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		<title>By: Morning's Minion</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/01/24/collective-punishment/#comment-10013</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Morning's Minion]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jan 2008 05:12:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=1738#comment-10013</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, that&#039;s right, we must never never say anything bad about the heresy of Calvinism. We wouldn&#039;t want to offend our good friends on the right, now, would we?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, that&#8217;s right, we must never never say anything bad about the heresy of Calvinism. We wouldn&#8217;t want to offend our good friends on the right, now, would we?</p>
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		<title>By: HA</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/01/24/collective-punishment/#comment-10007</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[HA]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jan 2008 03:22:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=1738#comment-10007</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In the old days, you could use similarly twisted logic to blame whatever you hated about America on the Freemasons. Or more conveniently, the Jews.

But railing against the Calvinists is much safer --  people are less likely to recognize you for the conspiracy-minded crackpot that you are, and you don&#039;t have to worry about being called an anti-Semite. Blackadder and Stuart are right -- this scapegoating of Calvinists is straight out of the Loraine Boettner playbook. You might as well refer to anything anti-democratic or authoritarian as &quot;derivative Catholicism&quot;, given our alleged slavish devotion to the Pope.

And as usual, it&#039;s left to Donald and Christopher to stand up to those who like to frame every issue as a &quot;have you stopped beating your wife?&quot; quiz  (or in this case, &quot;are you or are you not in favor of collective punishment?&quot;).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the old days, you could use similarly twisted logic to blame whatever you hated about America on the Freemasons. Or more conveniently, the Jews.</p>
<p>But railing against the Calvinists is much safer &#8212;  people are less likely to recognize you for the conspiracy-minded crackpot that you are, and you don&#8217;t have to worry about being called an anti-Semite. Blackadder and Stuart are right &#8212; this scapegoating of Calvinists is straight out of the Loraine Boettner playbook. You might as well refer to anything anti-democratic or authoritarian as &#8220;derivative Catholicism&#8221;, given our alleged slavish devotion to the Pope.</p>
<p>And as usual, it&#8217;s left to Donald and Christopher to stand up to those who like to frame every issue as a &#8220;have you stopped beating your wife?&#8221; quiz  (or in this case, &#8220;are you or are you not in favor of collective punishment?&#8221;).</p>
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		<title>By: Donald R. McClarey</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/01/24/collective-punishment/#comment-9999</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Donald R. McClarey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2008 23:59:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=1738#comment-9999</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[More on Israel and Hamas from that right wing rag, the Washington Post:


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/23/AR2008012303327.html]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>More on Israel and Hamas from that right wing rag, the Washington Post:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/23/AR2008012303327.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/23/AR2008012303327.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: digbydolben</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/01/24/collective-punishment/#comment-9989</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[digbydolben]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:46:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=1738#comment-9989</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think that both MM and I would agree that orthodox Calvinism (not the mishmash--agreed--that popularized Calvinism has devolved into) is an EVIL, heretical theology that has taken the Jehovah God of the ancient Jews and blended him with the &quot;unmoved mover&quot; to create a sort of monster--certainly not the &quot;Abba&quot; of Jesus Christ or Job&#039;s and David&#039;s deeply emotional and sympathetic Yahweh. That evil god is amply well depicted by Milton and by William Empson&#039;s &lt;i&gt;Milton&#039;s God&lt;/i&gt;, as being cruel, legalistic and exclusionary regarding &quot;grace&quot;--as far removed from the God of Thomist, Catholic (not Augustinian) Christianity. 

I come from the so-called &quot;Bible Belt,&quot; and this IS, indeed, the god of most Protestants in that region of the country, whether you call their &quot;theology&quot; Dispensationalist,&quot; watered-down &quot;Calvinist&quot; or &quot;Evangelical.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that both MM and I would agree that orthodox Calvinism (not the mishmash&#8211;agreed&#8211;that popularized Calvinism has devolved into) is an EVIL, heretical theology that has taken the Jehovah God of the ancient Jews and blended him with the &#8220;unmoved mover&#8221; to create a sort of monster&#8211;certainly not the &#8220;Abba&#8221; of Jesus Christ or Job&#8217;s and David&#8217;s deeply emotional and sympathetic Yahweh. That evil god is amply well depicted by Milton and by William Empson&#8217;s <i>Milton&#8217;s God</i>, as being cruel, legalistic and exclusionary regarding &#8220;grace&#8221;&#8211;as far removed from the God of Thomist, Catholic (not Augustinian) Christianity. </p>
<p>I come from the so-called &#8220;Bible Belt,&#8221; and this IS, indeed, the god of most Protestants in that region of the country, whether you call their &#8220;theology&#8221; Dispensationalist,&#8221; watered-down &#8220;Calvinist&#8221; or &#8220;Evangelical.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Stuart Buck</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/01/24/collective-punishment/#comment-9982</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Stuart Buck]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2008 20:20:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=1738#comment-9982</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[OK, but can you find a word other than &quot;Calvinism&quot;? Even invent a word, if you like, but this isn&#039;t Humpty-Dumpty.  If you keep using the word &quot;Calvinism&quot; to refer to things that have nothing to do with what other people think of as Calvinism, it&#039;s confusing.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, but can you find a word other than &#8220;Calvinism&#8221;? Even invent a word, if you like, but this isn&#8217;t Humpty-Dumpty.  If you keep using the word &#8220;Calvinism&#8221; to refer to things that have nothing to do with what other people think of as Calvinism, it&#8217;s confusing.</p>
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		<title>By: Morning's Minion</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/01/24/collective-punishment/#comment-9980</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Morning's Minion]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2008 20:11:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=1738#comment-9980</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Do I need to keep repeating that what I am talking about is the derivative Calvinism that underpins the American civic religion? And yes, it is a mish-mash of predestination, penal vicarious atonement, gnosticism (see Henry&#039;s series on that one), even some dispensationalism. See the link in the post for a more detailed argument as to how it affects American foriegn policy, and why Americans react every differently to things like terrorism than people in other countries.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do I need to keep repeating that what I am talking about is the derivative Calvinism that underpins the American civic religion? And yes, it is a mish-mash of predestination, penal vicarious atonement, gnosticism (see Henry&#8217;s series on that one), even some dispensationalism. See the link in the post for a more detailed argument as to how it affects American foriegn policy, and why Americans react every differently to things like terrorism than people in other countries.</p>
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		<title>By: Kellen</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/01/24/collective-punishment/#comment-9974</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kellen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2008 19:25:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=1738#comment-9974</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[HK - I appreciate your effort at moderation, I&#039;m definitely not looking to pick a fight or make cheap shots. Here&#039;s my reasoning:

The vast majority of Calvinists would say that even though God collectively punished (e.g. the sin of Achan), we don&#039;t have that right as fallen men. Just because God did or does something doesn&#039;t mean we have the right or the ability to do the same.

In addition, MM lumps together dispensationalism and Calvinism - two schools that are at each other&#039;s throats over precisely the ideas that MM cites as being common to both. Calvinists have predestination, dispensationalists are rabidly pro-Israel, and ne&#039;er the twain shall meet. Dispensational thought is much more dominant in American evangelical thought than Calvinism; most evangelicals cringe at the thought of predestination, so saying that Americans support collective punishment as American foreign policy because of predestinational theology makes no sense.

Blame it on dispensational thought? Sure! Hagee &amp;c. have been promoting it and goodness knows the Bush administration seems to buy into it. But don&#039;t attribute it to Calvinism - it&#039;s an insult to the good Calvinists I know who do not support what is being done to the Palestinians.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>HK &#8211; I appreciate your effort at moderation, I&#8217;m definitely not looking to pick a fight or make cheap shots. Here&#8217;s my reasoning:</p>
<p>The vast majority of Calvinists would say that even though God collectively punished (e.g. the sin of Achan), we don&#8217;t have that right as fallen men. Just because God did or does something doesn&#8217;t mean we have the right or the ability to do the same.</p>
<p>In addition, MM lumps together dispensationalism and Calvinism &#8211; two schools that are at each other&#8217;s throats over precisely the ideas that MM cites as being common to both. Calvinists have predestination, dispensationalists are rabidly pro-Israel, and ne&#8217;er the twain shall meet. Dispensational thought is much more dominant in American evangelical thought than Calvinism; most evangelicals cringe at the thought of predestination, so saying that Americans support collective punishment as American foreign policy because of predestinational theology makes no sense.</p>
<p>Blame it on dispensational thought? Sure! Hagee &amp;c. have been promoting it and goodness knows the Bush administration seems to buy into it. But don&#8217;t attribute it to Calvinism &#8211; it&#8217;s an insult to the good Calvinists I know who do not support what is being done to the Palestinians.</p>
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		<title>By: Stuart Buck</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/01/24/collective-punishment/#comment-9971</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Stuart Buck]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2008 19:22:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://voxnova2.wordpress.com/?p=1738#comment-9971</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Henry: 

It&#039;s incumbent on the person who makes a comparison to Calvinism in the first instance to explain why the comparison is apt.  I don&#039;t see why it&#039;s my responsibility to write a lengthy post refuting a comparison that most people would immediately recognize as bafflingly inaccurate.  

MM: 

Calvinists quintessentially think that God has predestined some people to be saved and some people not to be saved.  At the same time, at least in America (which is the purported comparison), it is quite routine for Calvinists to say that we can&#039;t know for sure who is in either group.  It&#039;s all up to God to decide in the end.  See, e.g., Sproul&#039;s comments &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.faithalone.org/journal/1995ii/Congdon.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.  For similar opinions, see &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.faithalone.org/journal/bookreviews/eaton.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;, or &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.4himnet.com/bnyberg/assurance.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;, or &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.loughbrickland.org/articles/freeoffer.shtml&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; (&quot;We do not know whether our neighbour or enemy is one of the elect or not, but still we are to love them.&quot;), or &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&amp;ct=res&amp;cd=2&amp;url=http%3A%2F%2Fatheism.about.com%2Flibrary%2Fglossary%2Fwestern%2Fbldef_calvinism.htm&amp;ei=_DCaR-LRFp_uiwHctc3wBg&amp;usg=AFQjCNGHcunnLs_v0bVVvgAyKHQ3PXlG-w&amp;sig2=7Lk6TKDXQ74X54Psa6_TVQ&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; (&quot;Calvinists believe that Christ died to atone for the specific sins of specific sinners, and only God knows who they are.&quot;), or &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.bouncelot.org/theology/predestination.php&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; (&quot;Calvinists would retort that only God knows who He has chosen. Therefore, in practice, it makes very little difference to preaching the gospel.&quot;).  

&lt;i&gt;The American evangelical “hey presto, wave you hands in the air, call Jesus you personal savior, and bada-bing, bada-boom, you are saved” is merely a trivialized, derivative form of Calvinism.&lt;/i&gt;

Calvinism doesn&#039;t lead to altar calls.  Quite the contrary -- if you think that salvation is solely up to God&#039;s will and that we&#039;re all totally depraved left to ourselves, then you don&#039;t think that salvation can be obtained just by your own choice to say a few words at an altar.  That&#039;s why Calvinists usually don&#039;t like altar calls.  See, e.g., &lt;a href=&quot;http://reformed-theology.org/html/issue04/altar_call.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;, or &lt;a href=&quot;http://seminite.blogspot.com/2006/01/altar-calls-baptist-sacrament.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;, &lt;a href=&quot;http://internetmonk.com/underground/?p=27&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; (&quot;They pronounce that altar calls are wicked because a non-Calvinist, Charles Finney, originated them.&quot;),

In short, &quot;Calvinism&quot; is an actual set of theological beliefs.  It&#039;s a word that has an actual meaning.  It&#039;s not just an all-purpose insult to be thrown willy-nilly at someone who merely thinks that one side of an international conflict deserves our support rather than the other side.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Henry: </p>
<p>It&#8217;s incumbent on the person who makes a comparison to Calvinism in the first instance to explain why the comparison is apt.  I don&#8217;t see why it&#8217;s my responsibility to write a lengthy post refuting a comparison that most people would immediately recognize as bafflingly inaccurate.  </p>
<p>MM: </p>
<p>Calvinists quintessentially think that God has predestined some people to be saved and some people not to be saved.  At the same time, at least in America (which is the purported comparison), it is quite routine for Calvinists to say that we can&#8217;t know for sure who is in either group.  It&#8217;s all up to God to decide in the end.  See, e.g., Sproul&#8217;s comments <a href="http://www.faithalone.org/journal/1995ii/Congdon.htm" rel="nofollow">here</a>.  For similar opinions, see <a href="http://www.faithalone.org/journal/bookreviews/eaton.htm" rel="nofollow">here</a>, or <a href="http://www.4himnet.com/bnyberg/assurance.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>, or <a href="http://www.loughbrickland.org/articles/freeoffer.shtml" rel="nofollow">here</a> (&#8220;We do not know whether our neighbour or enemy is one of the elect or not, but still we are to love them.&#8221;), or <a href="http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&amp;ct=res&amp;cd=2&amp;url=http%3A%2F%2Fatheism.about.com%2Flibrary%2Fglossary%2Fwestern%2Fbldef_calvinism.htm&amp;ei=_DCaR-LRFp_uiwHctc3wBg&amp;usg=AFQjCNGHcunnLs_v0bVVvgAyKHQ3PXlG-w&amp;sig2=7Lk6TKDXQ74X54Psa6_TVQ" rel="nofollow">here</a> (&#8220;Calvinists believe that Christ died to atone for the specific sins of specific sinners, and only God knows who they are.&#8221;), or <a href="http://www.bouncelot.org/theology/predestination.php" rel="nofollow">here</a> (&#8220;Calvinists would retort that only God knows who He has chosen. Therefore, in practice, it makes very little difference to preaching the gospel.&#8221;).  </p>
<p><i>The American evangelical “hey presto, wave you hands in the air, call Jesus you personal savior, and bada-bing, bada-boom, you are saved” is merely a trivialized, derivative form of Calvinism.</i></p>
<p>Calvinism doesn&#8217;t lead to altar calls.  Quite the contrary &#8212; if you think that salvation is solely up to God&#8217;s will and that we&#8217;re all totally depraved left to ourselves, then you don&#8217;t think that salvation can be obtained just by your own choice to say a few words at an altar.  That&#8217;s why Calvinists usually don&#8217;t like altar calls.  See, e.g., <a href="http://reformed-theology.org/html/issue04/altar_call.htm" rel="nofollow">here</a>, or <a href="http://seminite.blogspot.com/2006/01/altar-calls-baptist-sacrament.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>, <a href="http://internetmonk.com/underground/?p=27" rel="nofollow">here</a> (&#8220;They pronounce that altar calls are wicked because a non-Calvinist, Charles Finney, originated them.&#8221;),</p>
<p>In short, &#8220;Calvinism&#8221; is an actual set of theological beliefs.  It&#8217;s a word that has an actual meaning.  It&#8217;s not just an all-purpose insult to be thrown willy-nilly at someone who merely thinks that one side of an international conflict deserves our support rather than the other side.</p>
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