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	<title>Comments on: National Review and McCain</title>
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	<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/01/10/national-review-and-mccain/</link>
	<description>Catholic perspectives on culture, society, and politics</description>
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		<title>By: On torture and the Right &#171; Upturned Earth &#124;&#124; John Schwenkler</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/01/10/national-review-and-mccain/#comment-27872</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[On torture and the Right &#171; Upturned Earth &#124;&#124; John Schwenkler]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 20:55:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2008/01/10/national-review-and-mccain/#comment-27872</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] for (and indeed outright pride in) the desecration of the human person into a criterion for being &#8220;one of us&#8221;, is all the more reason not to bite one&#8217;s tongue in the face of the horrors of the present [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] for (and indeed outright pride in) the desecration of the human person into a criterion for being &#8220;one of us&#8221;, is all the more reason not to bite one&#8217;s tongue in the face of the horrors of the present [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Is This True? &#171; Vox Nova</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/01/10/national-review-and-mccain/#comment-14375</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Is This True? &#171; Vox Nova]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2008 21:17:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2008/01/10/national-review-and-mccain/#comment-14375</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] as a corporate entity, embraced torture on consequentialist grounds but its online editor, Kathyrn Jean Lopez, has used opposition to torture as a factor in deciding who is &#8220;one of us&#8221;. Talk about [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] as a corporate entity, embraced torture on consequentialist grounds but its online editor, Kathyrn Jean Lopez, has used opposition to torture as a factor in deciding who is &#8220;one of us&#8221;. Talk about [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/01/10/national-review-and-mccain/#comment-9000</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Christopher]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jan 2008 01:57:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2008/01/10/national-review-and-mccain/#comment-9000</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;a href=&quot;http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NDhkNzdjMTlkYWNiNTBmNGE5NmZlZmRjOTM5Zjk1NjE=&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;re: regrets and waterboarding&quot;&lt;/a&gt; @ The Corner (Andy McCarthy):

&quot;... McCain acknowledges that illegal coercion would still occur, but he assumes it would not be prosecuted if it actually resulted in preventing an attack.  I think McCain&#039;s way will inevitably result in more torture because it is a nod-and-a-wink approach that will (however inadvertently) promote disrespect for the law, the atmosphere in which lower-ranking officials are apt to engage in more torture.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NDhkNzdjMTlkYWNiNTBmNGE5NmZlZmRjOTM5Zjk1NjE=" rel="nofollow">re: regrets and waterboarding&#8221;</a> @ The Corner (Andy McCarthy):</p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230; McCain acknowledges that illegal coercion would still occur, but he assumes it would not be prosecuted if it actually resulted in preventing an attack.  I think McCain&#8217;s way will inevitably result in more torture because it is a nod-and-a-wink approach that will (however inadvertently) promote disrespect for the law, the atmosphere in which lower-ranking officials are apt to engage in more torture.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/01/10/national-review-and-mccain/#comment-8998</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Christopher]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jan 2008 01:53:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2008/01/10/national-review-and-mccain/#comment-8998</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;a href=&quot;http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MGVjZWFlODY0OTY1ZWNmM2Y3YzhkYmFkNDFjZTkyZDk=&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Kathryn Jean Lopez responds&lt;/a&gt;:

&lt;i&gt;I mentioned waterboarding way too casually in a short election piece earlier this week. I used it as shorthand for the whole interrogation debate and both the issue and Senator McCain deserve more.

That Americans worry that we are human-rights champions and don&#039;t abuse even some of the worst men alive is a testament to us and our morality.

On torture, John McCain knows more, God bless him, than I will ever know. He has my deepest respect and gratitude for his service. But his leadership on the issue of torture and whether or not waterboarding is or isn&#039;t torture has done more harm than good. As others have explained in great detail, he&#039;s added confusion, Congress has punted, and the hands of men on the frontlines of wartime interrogation have been tied as a result.

John McCain has been stalwart on the surge in Iraq. We owe him for that — he was the D.C. leader articulating what the White House often didn&#039;t. But as important as it was and is, the surge isn&#039;t the sum-total of U.S. defense policy— a point that&#039;s been made in these parts. Neither is the surge policy the sum-total of John McCain. That was my point — when considering settling on a Republican nominee, conservatives need to consider the sum-total of a candidate. And when you look through John McCain&#039;s record — and policies he advocates/leads on to this day — there&#039;s plenty to disagree with, as Mark Levin and Andy McCarthy highlighted yesterday.

Folks will dissent with the mainstream of conservative thought — heaven knows we do it right here on a wide array of issues — among ourselves and in interacting with readers, other blogs, and columnists. I certainly wasn&#039;t writing folks who disagree on one rare form of interrogation out of the conservative movement (as if I have that power!). I was using shorthand — probably ill-advisedly — to refer to McCain&#039;s role in the legislative debate on interrogation.&lt;/i&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MGVjZWFlODY0OTY1ZWNmM2Y3YzhkYmFkNDFjZTkyZDk=" rel="nofollow">Kathryn Jean Lopez responds</a>:</p>
<p><i>I mentioned waterboarding way too casually in a short election piece earlier this week. I used it as shorthand for the whole interrogation debate and both the issue and Senator McCain deserve more.</p>
<p>That Americans worry that we are human-rights champions and don&#8217;t abuse even some of the worst men alive is a testament to us and our morality.</p>
<p>On torture, John McCain knows more, God bless him, than I will ever know. He has my deepest respect and gratitude for his service. But his leadership on the issue of torture and whether or not waterboarding is or isn&#8217;t torture has done more harm than good. As others have explained in great detail, he&#8217;s added confusion, Congress has punted, and the hands of men on the frontlines of wartime interrogation have been tied as a result.</p>
<p>John McCain has been stalwart on the surge in Iraq. We owe him for that — he was the D.C. leader articulating what the White House often didn&#8217;t. But as important as it was and is, the surge isn&#8217;t the sum-total of U.S. defense policy— a point that&#8217;s been made in these parts. Neither is the surge policy the sum-total of John McCain. That was my point — when considering settling on a Republican nominee, conservatives need to consider the sum-total of a candidate. And when you look through John McCain&#8217;s record — and policies he advocates/leads on to this day — there&#8217;s plenty to disagree with, as Mark Levin and Andy McCarthy highlighted yesterday.</p>
<p>Folks will dissent with the mainstream of conservative thought — heaven knows we do it right here on a wide array of issues — among ourselves and in interacting with readers, other blogs, and columnists. I certainly wasn&#8217;t writing folks who disagree on one rare form of interrogation out of the conservative movement (as if I have that power!). I was using shorthand — probably ill-advisedly — to refer to McCain&#8217;s role in the legislative debate on interrogation.</i></p>
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		<title>By: Morning's Minion</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/01/10/national-review-and-mccain/#comment-8895</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Morning's Minion]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 17:29:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2008/01/10/national-review-and-mccain/#comment-8895</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Lopez first came to my attention after Benedict&#039;s election when she triumphantly declared that the Holy Spirit had chosen orthodoxy. What an outrageous comment, I thought, given that evvery single cardinal that entered the conclave was of course completely &quot;orthodox&quot;. What presumption! Then again, if Ms. Lopez&#039;s view of orthodoxy encompasses waterboarding, then I would respectfully submit that what she believes is not the faith of the Catholic Church.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lopez first came to my attention after Benedict&#8217;s election when she triumphantly declared that the Holy Spirit had chosen orthodoxy. What an outrageous comment, I thought, given that evvery single cardinal that entered the conclave was of course completely &#8220;orthodox&#8221;. What presumption! Then again, if Ms. Lopez&#8217;s view of orthodoxy encompasses waterboarding, then I would respectfully submit that what she believes is not the faith of the Catholic Church.</p>
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		<title>By: Mr. Cheeseburger 9000</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/01/10/national-review-and-mccain/#comment-8862</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mr. Cheeseburger 9000]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:48:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2008/01/10/national-review-and-mccain/#comment-8862</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Apart from the interesting comments on waterboarding, I think what we&#039;re seeing with both the Republican Party and the Conservatives is an identity crisis.  In many ways, it will be the same struggle the democrats had after Clinton 1 left office -- they are only now starting to create an identifiable platform and, even at that, have a long way to go.  Perhaps McCain and his &quot;rise&quot; to popularity is a sign that the ruling faction of both the Republicans and Conservatives have shifted.  We shall see if the paradigm changes or stays the same . . .]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apart from the interesting comments on waterboarding, I think what we&#8217;re seeing with both the Republican Party and the Conservatives is an identity crisis.  In many ways, it will be the same struggle the democrats had after Clinton 1 left office &#8212; they are only now starting to create an identifiable platform and, even at that, have a long way to go.  Perhaps McCain and his &#8220;rise&#8221; to popularity is a sign that the ruling faction of both the Republicans and Conservatives have shifted.  We shall see if the paradigm changes or stays the same . . .</p>
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		<title>By: Remi</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/01/10/national-review-and-mccain/#comment-8860</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Remi]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 08:19:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2008/01/10/national-review-and-mccain/#comment-8860</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for your discussions. I will enjoy and read it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your discussions. I will enjoy and read it.</p>
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		<title>By: TeutonicTim</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/01/10/national-review-and-mccain/#comment-8855</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[TeutonicTim]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 03:36:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2008/01/10/national-review-and-mccain/#comment-8855</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Actually eastern waterboarding is different than something we might do...  Do some reading before comparing us to the khmer rouge.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually eastern waterboarding is different than something we might do&#8230;  Do some reading before comparing us to the khmer rouge.</p>
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		<title>By: jh</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/01/10/national-review-and-mccain/#comment-8854</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jh]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 02:43:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2008/01/10/national-review-and-mccain/#comment-8854</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I would not worry too much what Mrs Lopez says. She worls off the premises that we shall all forget what she wrote 6 months ago. A pure case of someoone who should walk arounf the block before she hits the submit button]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would not worry too much what Mrs Lopez says. She worls off the premises that we shall all forget what she wrote 6 months ago. A pure case of someoone who should walk arounf the block before she hits the submit button</p>
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		<title>By: G. Alkon</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/01/10/national-review-and-mccain/#comment-8853</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[G. Alkon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 02:38:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2008/01/10/national-review-and-mccain/#comment-8853</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Victor Davis Hanson, John Derbyshire, and Michael Ledeen have, whatever they say about waterboarding, insistently called for violence against Arabs and Persians.

You may say that the violence they demand is &quot;prudent.&quot;

Let me  give you an example of &quot;prudential reasoning&quot;:  Caiaphas said that it was good that one man should die so as to save many.  Eminently clear--far more prudent than NRO, far more prudent, in fact, than virtually any rationale for war perpetrated by the United States in its 200+ year history.  The Romans were in the habit of killing dozens if not hundreds of Jews associated with the terroristic anti-Roman zealots.  Certainly it was prudent to simply surrender one rabble-rousing Jew to Pilate.

Pilate&#039;s reasoning was also admirably prudential:  a mob of angry Jews is demanding blood, is sick of occupation and also sick of this guy Jesus who claims to be on their side but won&#039;t actually &quot;do&quot; anything to get the Romans out of Palestine.  The Jews want Barrabas, a proven terrorist zealot, and not Jesus, an obscurantist pacifist.  Why shouldn&#039;t Pilate, then, act prudentially and give the mob what it wants?

Certainly Pilate was a prudent man.  

Far more prudent than an air force commander who orders that a city (like Fallujah) be strafed with several hundred tons of explosives, in order to &quot;root out the terroristic element&quot; taking refuge there.  Certainly it is obvious that many dozens of innocents will die in such a bombing action.  But of course it is prudent to drop the bombs nonetheless.  

It is good that a few die to save the lives of many.

That is the essence of prudential reasoning.

It is good that a few die to save the lives of many.  Especially if we are among the many saved.

Rather than submitting to this age-old logic of blood, Catholic Christians should follow their ostensible Lord and take up their crosses.  

It is good to be saved by prudential murder.  It is far better to be crucified.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Victor Davis Hanson, John Derbyshire, and Michael Ledeen have, whatever they say about waterboarding, insistently called for violence against Arabs and Persians.</p>
<p>You may say that the violence they demand is &#8220;prudent.&#8221;</p>
<p>Let me  give you an example of &#8220;prudential reasoning&#8221;:  Caiaphas said that it was good that one man should die so as to save many.  Eminently clear&#8211;far more prudent than NRO, far more prudent, in fact, than virtually any rationale for war perpetrated by the United States in its 200+ year history.  The Romans were in the habit of killing dozens if not hundreds of Jews associated with the terroristic anti-Roman zealots.  Certainly it was prudent to simply surrender one rabble-rousing Jew to Pilate.</p>
<p>Pilate&#8217;s reasoning was also admirably prudential:  a mob of angry Jews is demanding blood, is sick of occupation and also sick of this guy Jesus who claims to be on their side but won&#8217;t actually &#8220;do&#8221; anything to get the Romans out of Palestine.  The Jews want Barrabas, a proven terrorist zealot, and not Jesus, an obscurantist pacifist.  Why shouldn&#8217;t Pilate, then, act prudentially and give the mob what it wants?</p>
<p>Certainly Pilate was a prudent man.  </p>
<p>Far more prudent than an air force commander who orders that a city (like Fallujah) be strafed with several hundred tons of explosives, in order to &#8220;root out the terroristic element&#8221; taking refuge there.  Certainly it is obvious that many dozens of innocents will die in such a bombing action.  But of course it is prudent to drop the bombs nonetheless.  </p>
<p>It is good that a few die to save the lives of many.</p>
<p>That is the essence of prudential reasoning.</p>
<p>It is good that a few die to save the lives of many.  Especially if we are among the many saved.</p>
<p>Rather than submitting to this age-old logic of blood, Catholic Christians should follow their ostensible Lord and take up their crosses.  </p>
<p>It is good to be saved by prudential murder.  It is far better to be crucified.</p>
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		<title>By: DarwinCatholic</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/01/10/national-review-and-mccain/#comment-8836</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[DarwinCatholic]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jan 2008 23:18:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2008/01/10/national-review-and-mccain/#comment-8836</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That strikes me as a massively dumb comment on K-Lo&#039;s part.  If it represents serious thought on her part, then it&#039;s quite disappointing from someone who is in some areas a moderately thoughtful Catholic.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That strikes me as a massively dumb comment on K-Lo&#8217;s part.  If it represents serious thought on her part, then it&#8217;s quite disappointing from someone who is in some areas a moderately thoughtful Catholic.</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2008/01/10/national-review-and-mccain/#comment-8830</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Christopher]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jan 2008 22:44:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2008/01/10/national-review-and-mccain/#comment-8830</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;By the way, I don’t think it’s fair to ascribe K-Lo’s view on waterboarding to all of NRO. Not everyone there would agree with her.&lt;/i&gt;

NRO contributors &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nationalreview.com/ledeen/ledeen200405211643.asp&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Michael Ledeen&lt;/a&gt; and &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nationalreview.com/derbyshire/derbyshire111601.shtml&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;John Derbyshire&lt;/a&gt; have penned columns &lt;i&gt;against&lt;/i&gt; torture in the &lt;i&gt;National Review&lt;/i&gt;. 

So has &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/hanson120505.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Victor Davis Hanson&lt;/a&gt; 

And the virtual mouthpiece of the neoconservative movement -- &lt;I&gt;The Weekly Standard&lt;/i&gt; -- has published articles &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/005/582xauup.asp&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;criticizing the Bush administration&#039;s practice of &lt;i&gt;rendition&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/A&gt; and in support of &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/006/169cyftd.asp&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;a uniform standard prohibiting detainee abuse&lt;/A&gt;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>By the way, I don’t think it’s fair to ascribe K-Lo’s view on waterboarding to all of NRO. Not everyone there would agree with her.</i></p>
<p>NRO contributors <a href="http://www.nationalreview.com/ledeen/ledeen200405211643.asp" rel="nofollow">Michael Ledeen</a> and <a href="http://www.nationalreview.com/derbyshire/derbyshire111601.shtml" rel="nofollow">John Derbyshire</a> have penned columns <i>against</i> torture in the <i>National Review</i>. </p>
<p>So has <a HREF="http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/hanson120505.html" rel="nofollow">Victor Davis Hanson</a> </p>
<p>And the virtual mouthpiece of the neoconservative movement &#8212; <i>The Weekly Standard</i> &#8212; has published articles <a HREF="http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/005/582xauup.asp" rel="nofollow">criticizing the Bush administration&#8217;s practice of <i>rendition</i></a> and in support of <a HREF="http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/006/169cyftd.asp" rel="nofollow">a uniform standard prohibiting detainee abuse</a>.</p>
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