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	<title>Comments on: Baseball, cheating, and the law.</title>
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	<link>http://vox-nova.com/2007/12/17/baseball-cheating-and-the-law/</link>
	<description>Catholic perspectives on culture, society, and politics</description>
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		<title>By: SMB</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2007/12/17/baseball-cheating-and-the-law/#comment-7131</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[SMB]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Dec 2007 00:27:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2007/12/17/baseball-cheating-and-the-law/#comment-7131</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&#039;I’m not sure anyone who has commented has actually read Matthew’s post. It’s a lot deeper than what’s being said in the comments.&#039;

Well, don&#039;t leave us hanging... ;)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;I’m not sure anyone who has commented has actually read Matthew’s post. It’s a lot deeper than what’s being said in the comments.&#8217;</p>
<p>Well, don&#8217;t leave us hanging&#8230; ;)</p>
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		<title>By: Policraticus</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2007/12/17/baseball-cheating-and-the-law/#comment-7125</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Policraticus]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 23:37:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2007/12/17/baseball-cheating-and-the-law/#comment-7125</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m not sure anyone who has commented has actually read Matthew&#039;s post.  It&#039;s a lot deeper than what&#039;s being said in the comments.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure anyone who has commented has actually read Matthew&#8217;s post.  It&#8217;s a lot deeper than what&#8217;s being said in the comments.</p>
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		<title>By: RonPaulForLife</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2007/12/17/baseball-cheating-and-the-law/#comment-7122</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[RonPaulForLife]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 23:21:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2007/12/17/baseball-cheating-and-the-law/#comment-7122</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;should we encourage and teach our children to bend the rules in sport, so as to win, or rather is fidelity to the law so as to promote fairness more important?&quot;

Of course we shouldn&#039;t teach them to bend the rules. But deception is a part of many sports and looking for that &quot;edge&quot; while still staying within the lines should be encouraged.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;should we encourage and teach our children to bend the rules in sport, so as to win, or rather is fidelity to the law so as to promote fairness more important?&#8221;</p>
<p>Of course we shouldn&#8217;t teach them to bend the rules. But deception is a part of many sports and looking for that &#8220;edge&#8221; while still staying within the lines should be encouraged.</p>
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		<title>By: Katerina Ivanovna</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2007/12/17/baseball-cheating-and-the-law/#comment-7105</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Katerina Ivanovna]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 20:53:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2007/12/17/baseball-cheating-and-the-law/#comment-7105</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I was actually going to do a post about the Mitchell Report, because just like you I have been a lifelong fan; however, I&#039;ve been losing interest in the game the last few years and now it has hit rock bottom.  

Thanks for the good post.  Something I can&#039;t stand is parents who teach their kids that they have to win no matter what.  I have seen that quite often with my brother&#039;s little league games.  It&#039;s all about the family and how we raise our children... I agree.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was actually going to do a post about the Mitchell Report, because just like you I have been a lifelong fan; however, I&#8217;ve been losing interest in the game the last few years and now it has hit rock bottom.  </p>
<p>Thanks for the good post.  Something I can&#8217;t stand is parents who teach their kids that they have to win no matter what.  I have seen that quite often with my brother&#8217;s little league games.  It&#8217;s all about the family and how we raise our children&#8230; I agree.</p>
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		<title>By: Morning's Minion</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2007/12/17/baseball-cheating-and-the-law/#comment-7103</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Morning's Minion]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 20:50:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2007/12/17/baseball-cheating-and-the-law/#comment-7103</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I know nothing about baseball, but this is a really interesting question. I think the approach to rules is definitely cultural, but does not fall into easy US-Europe distinctions. For example, I believe northern European culture prizes rules more so than in the US. Take a common norm, such as obeying traffic rules. In Germany, you will see people waiting for the pedestrian light to change on a totally empty road (no joke-- I&#039;ve seen it!), while in Italy, pedestrians run under cars, cars run over pedestrians, and everybody curses at everybody else! I think the US is somewhere in between the Northern and Southern European norms here. 

I do believe the Church&#039;s approach to rules (canon law etc) cannot be understood outside of this very &#039;Italian&#039; context-- as you say, the law is the ideal to strive for. Doesn&#039;t the Code of Canon Law basically conclude that, at the end of the day, everything must be geared toward the salvation of souls? (I don&#039;t recall the exact language). 

I also believe we need to make a distinction between not obeying rules and sins of injustice. If you cheat on a test, you are basically cheating your fellow test-taker out of what he/she deserves. If you cheat on your taxes, you are detracting from the common good. But if you jaywalk occasionally... does that really matter?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know nothing about baseball, but this is a really interesting question. I think the approach to rules is definitely cultural, but does not fall into easy US-Europe distinctions. For example, I believe northern European culture prizes rules more so than in the US. Take a common norm, such as obeying traffic rules. In Germany, you will see people waiting for the pedestrian light to change on a totally empty road (no joke&#8211; I&#8217;ve seen it!), while in Italy, pedestrians run under cars, cars run over pedestrians, and everybody curses at everybody else! I think the US is somewhere in between the Northern and Southern European norms here. </p>
<p>I do believe the Church&#8217;s approach to rules (canon law etc) cannot be understood outside of this very &#8216;Italian&#8217; context&#8211; as you say, the law is the ideal to strive for. Doesn&#8217;t the Code of Canon Law basically conclude that, at the end of the day, everything must be geared toward the salvation of souls? (I don&#8217;t recall the exact language). </p>
<p>I also believe we need to make a distinction between not obeying rules and sins of injustice. If you cheat on a test, you are basically cheating your fellow test-taker out of what he/she deserves. If you cheat on your taxes, you are detracting from the common good. But if you jaywalk occasionally&#8230; does that really matter?</p>
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		<title>By: SMB</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2007/12/17/baseball-cheating-and-the-law/#comment-7102</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[SMB]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 20:37:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2007/12/17/baseball-cheating-and-the-law/#comment-7102</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The idea that the Commissioner, who serves at the pleasure of the owners&#039; cartel, can be trusted to preserve honesty in baseball is, to put it simply, ludicrous. 

I agree with Matthew that sports OUGHT to be taken more seriously as a public trust. But they have been commodified to the point that the sports industry will put out whatever crap we are willing to consume.  I doubt that direct government intervention will do much good. What is needed is the inclusion of consumers (i.e., fans) as a force in regulating sports, equal to management (the owners) and labor (the players). But for that to happen, we fans will have to walk away from the turnstiles for a while, and I don&#039;t see that happening.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The idea that the Commissioner, who serves at the pleasure of the owners&#8217; cartel, can be trusted to preserve honesty in baseball is, to put it simply, ludicrous. </p>
<p>I agree with Matthew that sports OUGHT to be taken more seriously as a public trust. But they have been commodified to the point that the sports industry will put out whatever crap we are willing to consume.  I doubt that direct government intervention will do much good. What is needed is the inclusion of consumers (i.e., fans) as a force in regulating sports, equal to management (the owners) and labor (the players). But for that to happen, we fans will have to walk away from the turnstiles for a while, and I don&#8217;t see that happening.</p>
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		<title>By: jonathanjones02</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2007/12/17/baseball-cheating-and-the-law/#comment-7100</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jonathanjones02]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 20:36:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2007/12/17/baseball-cheating-and-the-law/#comment-7100</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Long-time and widespread (both quite likely) use of performance enhancing drugs combined with a complete lack of interest by the union and the suits? 

That is no small matter.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Long-time and widespread (both quite likely) use of performance enhancing drugs combined with a complete lack of interest by the union and the suits? </p>
<p>That is no small matter.</p>
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		<title>By: Marv</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2007/12/17/baseball-cheating-and-the-law/#comment-7099</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Marv]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 20:26:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2007/12/17/baseball-cheating-and-the-law/#comment-7099</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, I don&#039;t want to get into a discussion of anti-trust laws and how they are not necessary, which Alan Greenspan dealt quite nicely in his article entitled &quot;Anti-Trust&quot;.

Nonetheless, Jonathan, this stupid anti-trust exemption (I have never figured out why the government care if a recreational past time activity is a trust or not ) justifies the intervention of Congress in every aspect of the sport?  What&#039;s next requiring umps to have a thrugh vision exam before each game?  This shows the flawed logic of accepting anything as a right or privledge from Government - it uses as the excuse to control every aspect of your existance.   

The placing of such priorities on sports and their regulation within our culture and our government is what warps our kid&#039;s priorities and behavior more so than anything an individual athlete does.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I don&#8217;t want to get into a discussion of anti-trust laws and how they are not necessary, which Alan Greenspan dealt quite nicely in his article entitled &#8220;Anti-Trust&#8221;.</p>
<p>Nonetheless, Jonathan, this stupid anti-trust exemption (I have never figured out why the government care if a recreational past time activity is a trust or not ) justifies the intervention of Congress in every aspect of the sport?  What&#8217;s next requiring umps to have a thrugh vision exam before each game?  This shows the flawed logic of accepting anything as a right or privledge from Government &#8211; it uses as the excuse to control every aspect of your existance.   </p>
<p>The placing of such priorities on sports and their regulation within our culture and our government is what warps our kid&#8217;s priorities and behavior more so than anything an individual athlete does.</p>
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		<title>By: jonathanjones02</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2007/12/17/baseball-cheating-and-the-law/#comment-7096</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jonathanjones02]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 20:06:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2007/12/17/baseball-cheating-and-the-law/#comment-7096</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[When the government grants baseball an anti-trust exemption, and when baseball fails to police its lawbreakers, the government has a right to stick its nose in.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When the government grants baseball an anti-trust exemption, and when baseball fails to police its lawbreakers, the government has a right to stick its nose in.</p>
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		<title>By: Marv</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2007/12/17/baseball-cheating-and-the-law/#comment-7092</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Marv]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 19:51:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2007/12/17/baseball-cheating-and-the-law/#comment-7092</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Come now.   This whole thing is really the proverbial &quot;tempest in a teapot&quot;.

First, this is a prime example of the Federal government involving itself in every aspect of our lives.   If major league baseball feels that this is an important issue they have an omnipotent Commissioner who can issue decrees against this sort of activity and if the use of Steroids is hurting the business of baseball I am sure that the Commissioners and owners would take swift action against it.  It should be up to them to determine what is &quot;fair&quot; in their own sport and not Congress any more than it should be up to Congress to decide if the  designated hitter rule is &quot;fair&quot;.

Secondly,  I would say that the law against the use of steroids for athletic performance enhancement is a case of &quot;malum prohibitum&quot; as opposed to &quot;malum in se&quot;.   Yes, they have detrimental physical and mental side effects but so do other &quot;performance enhancing drugs&quot; such as caffine (which if you were a Mormon you might also argue should be illegal).   I could go on to mention other drugs that we let people use, i.e., alcohol, that have a high cost on health and others but which are not illegal - at least we learned that didn&#039;t work 80 or 90 years ago.

Also, there are lots of activities in which we participate in the name of winning or financal gain that is detrimental to our personal lives and mental and physical health, i.e., spending 80 hours a week at the office or devoting too much time to exercise (without steroids) to the exclusion of other aspects of our lives.   Do you propose that these activities be subject to governmental regulations.    The primary rule in the work place whether that is the law, baseball or manufacturing line or in recreation should be &quot;moderation in all things&quot; - but is this a rule we want to legislate.

I would say you are taking a very Protestant viewpoint, i.e., there are strict rules and if you break or bend any of them you are evil and not saved and deserve to be punished.  You tend to forget that there is a distinction in Catholic theology between mortal sins and venial sins.   This is why Protestants tend to get hung up when some one lets go with some good ol&#039;fashion 4 letter words or gets drunk, where as the Catholic Church, while it may not approve of  the use of fowl language or excess use of alcohol, does not see such activity necessarily as a sign that that person is evil or unsaved or damned to Hell.  

Finally,  as in all cases, if our children are deriving their morality from sports heros, rock and movie stars, or other public figures then we are not doing our job as parents.  Would I want my kids to be so wrapped up in sports that they take steroids to enhance their performance?   No, but if they did I wouldn&#039;t be blaming Barry Bonds.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Come now.   This whole thing is really the proverbial &#8220;tempest in a teapot&#8221;.</p>
<p>First, this is a prime example of the Federal government involving itself in every aspect of our lives.   If major league baseball feels that this is an important issue they have an omnipotent Commissioner who can issue decrees against this sort of activity and if the use of Steroids is hurting the business of baseball I am sure that the Commissioners and owners would take swift action against it.  It should be up to them to determine what is &#8220;fair&#8221; in their own sport and not Congress any more than it should be up to Congress to decide if the  designated hitter rule is &#8220;fair&#8221;.</p>
<p>Secondly,  I would say that the law against the use of steroids for athletic performance enhancement is a case of &#8220;malum prohibitum&#8221; as opposed to &#8220;malum in se&#8221;.   Yes, they have detrimental physical and mental side effects but so do other &#8220;performance enhancing drugs&#8221; such as caffine (which if you were a Mormon you might also argue should be illegal).   I could go on to mention other drugs that we let people use, i.e., alcohol, that have a high cost on health and others but which are not illegal &#8211; at least we learned that didn&#8217;t work 80 or 90 years ago.</p>
<p>Also, there are lots of activities in which we participate in the name of winning or financal gain that is detrimental to our personal lives and mental and physical health, i.e., spending 80 hours a week at the office or devoting too much time to exercise (without steroids) to the exclusion of other aspects of our lives.   Do you propose that these activities be subject to governmental regulations.    The primary rule in the work place whether that is the law, baseball or manufacturing line or in recreation should be &#8220;moderation in all things&#8221; &#8211; but is this a rule we want to legislate.</p>
<p>I would say you are taking a very Protestant viewpoint, i.e., there are strict rules and if you break or bend any of them you are evil and not saved and deserve to be punished.  You tend to forget that there is a distinction in Catholic theology between mortal sins and venial sins.   This is why Protestants tend to get hung up when some one lets go with some good ol&#8217;fashion 4 letter words or gets drunk, where as the Catholic Church, while it may not approve of  the use of fowl language or excess use of alcohol, does not see such activity necessarily as a sign that that person is evil or unsaved or damned to Hell.  </p>
<p>Finally,  as in all cases, if our children are deriving their morality from sports heros, rock and movie stars, or other public figures then we are not doing our job as parents.  Would I want my kids to be so wrapped up in sports that they take steroids to enhance their performance?   No, but if they did I wouldn&#8217;t be blaming Barry Bonds.</p>
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