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	<title>Comments on: USCCB Debates Consistent Ethic of Life</title>
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	<description>Catholic perspectives on culture, society, and politics</description>
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		<title>By: catholicanarchy.org &#187; New liturgical music document</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/29/usccb-debates-consistent-ethic-of-life/#comment-3877</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[catholicanarchy.org &#187; New liturgical music document]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Oct 2007 23:59:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/29/usccb-debates-consistent-ethic-of-life/#comment-3877</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Minion generated some good discussion at Vox Nova around the U.S. bishops’ upcoming update of their voter’s guide, Faithful Citizenship a few [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Minion generated some good discussion at Vox Nova around the U.S. bishops’ upcoming update of their voter’s guide, Faithful Citizenship a few [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Sing to the Lord: Music in Divine Worship &#171; Vox Nova</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/29/usccb-debates-consistent-ethic-of-life/#comment-3838</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sing to the Lord: Music in Divine Worship &#171; Vox Nova]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Oct 2007 16:21:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/29/usccb-debates-consistent-ethic-of-life/#comment-3838</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] to the Lord: Music in Divine&#160;Worship  Morning&#8217;s Minion generated some good discussion around the U.S. bishops&#8217; upcoming update of their voter&#8217;s guide, Faithful Citizenship a [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] to the Lord: Music in Divine&nbsp;Worship  Morning&#8217;s Minion generated some good discussion around the U.S. bishops&#8217; upcoming update of their voter&#8217;s guide, Faithful Citizenship a [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Iafrate</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/29/usccb-debates-consistent-ethic-of-life/#comment-3824</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael Iafrate]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Oct 2007 02:27:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/29/usccb-debates-consistent-ethic-of-life/#comment-3824</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[MM - Yes, you are right. The U.S. government has had its mind made up about torture for decades now. It has largely kept it a secret from U.S. citizens, but anyone who has been paying attention knows the truth. The U.S. gov&#039;t is not &quot;muddling through&quot; the issue of torture... rather it is &quot;muddling through&quot; how it is going to justify the torture that it does and has been doing for some time now.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MM &#8211; Yes, you are right. The U.S. government has had its mind made up about torture for decades now. It has largely kept it a secret from U.S. citizens, but anyone who has been paying attention knows the truth. The U.S. gov&#8217;t is not &#8220;muddling through&#8221; the issue of torture&#8230; rather it is &#8220;muddling through&#8221; how it is going to justify the torture that it does and has been doing for some time now.</p>
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		<title>By: Morning's Minion</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/29/usccb-debates-consistent-ethic-of-life/#comment-3810</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Morning's Minion]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 20:59:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/29/usccb-debates-consistent-ethic-of-life/#comment-3810</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;The government continues to muddle through theses issues, and we also need to address it&quot;. That&#039;s a euphamism, if ever I&#039;ve heard one. This government has legalized torture, pure and simple. It has adopted &quot;enhanced interrogration techniques&quot; right out of the Gestopo rule book (and no, that&#039;s not an exagerration). It does things the Khmer Rouge perfected. It produces meno that say everything short of death or serious organ failure is OK. This is not muddling through. This is evil, pure and simple.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The government continues to muddle through theses issues, and we also need to address it&#8221;. That&#8217;s a euphamism, if ever I&#8217;ve heard one. This government has legalized torture, pure and simple. It has adopted &#8220;enhanced interrogration techniques&#8221; right out of the Gestopo rule book (and no, that&#8217;s not an exagerration). It does things the Khmer Rouge perfected. It produces meno that say everything short of death or serious organ failure is OK. This is not muddling through. This is evil, pure and simple.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Iafrate</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/29/usccb-debates-consistent-ethic-of-life/#comment-3793</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael Iafrate]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:30:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/29/usccb-debates-consistent-ethic-of-life/#comment-3793</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If you insist on the &quot;bucket&quot; analogy, please at least see that all the life issues are in the same &quot;bucket.&quot; Abortion does not have its own &quot;bucket.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you insist on the &#8220;bucket&#8221; analogy, please at least see that all the life issues are in the same &#8220;bucket.&#8221; Abortion does not have its own &#8220;bucket.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Jay Anderson</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/29/usccb-debates-consistent-ethic-of-life/#comment-3786</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jay Anderson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 16:32:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/29/usccb-debates-consistent-ethic-of-life/#comment-3786</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;There are no &#039;buckets&#039;.&quot;

By &quot;buckets&quot;, I mean different sets of issues: foreign policy, health care, poverty, taxes, education, marriage and family law, abortion, judicial appointments, the environment, crime and punishment, etc. 

I&#039;m all for having a consistent ethic of life, but unless you&#039;re claiming that ALL of these issues can be lumped together and are of equal import, and that there is a one and only Catholic answer that addresses each and every public policy issue, then of course there are &quot;buckets&quot;. 

In the real world, those of us who don&#039;t eschew voting recognize the balancing and picking and choosing that, unfortunately, must be done when choosing between the different policy priorities (i.e. &quot;buckets&quot;) of the candidates. Perhaps there are instances when the choices are so bad, that one must abstain from voting. But I consider that the exception rather than the rule.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;There are no &#8216;buckets&#8217;.&#8221;</p>
<p>By &#8220;buckets&#8221;, I mean different sets of issues: foreign policy, health care, poverty, taxes, education, marriage and family law, abortion, judicial appointments, the environment, crime and punishment, etc. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m all for having a consistent ethic of life, but unless you&#8217;re claiming that ALL of these issues can be lumped together and are of equal import, and that there is a one and only Catholic answer that addresses each and every public policy issue, then of course there are &#8220;buckets&#8221;. </p>
<p>In the real world, those of us who don&#8217;t eschew voting recognize the balancing and picking and choosing that, unfortunately, must be done when choosing between the different policy priorities (i.e. &#8220;buckets&#8221;) of the candidates. Perhaps there are instances when the choices are so bad, that one must abstain from voting. But I consider that the exception rather than the rule.</p>
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		<title>By: jonathanjones02</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/29/usccb-debates-consistent-ethic-of-life/#comment-3785</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jonathanjones02]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 16:31:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/29/usccb-debates-consistent-ethic-of-life/#comment-3785</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Of course it is an attack on human dignity. But it is not sufficient to include torture in a list of nen-negotiables unless we have some common notion of what the term means. Does sleep deprivation count? Does rough, cursing verbal interrogation? The government continues to muddle through theses issues, and we also need to address it. Without this exercise, it is too cheap and easy to rhetorically throw around the term as a &quot;gotcha!&quot; to people you disagree with, suggesting they don&#039;t have a consistent ethic of life, while of course you do.

And regarding the expansion of S-CHIP, the creation of new entitlements, or your view of single-payer ect., I don&#039;t need to have an alternative to have a consistent ethic of life. It&#039;s a public policy matter, one I am still studying. (And you misrepresent again with assigning tax credits as my solution - I don&#039;t have one and have stated so clearly). If you have your policy preferences - great. But it is moral preening not only to fold those preferences into the consistent ethic of life - when one may legitimately believe in alternatives, so long as there is the goal and the striving for life and human dignity - but to keep suggesting that those who would oppose whatever your preferences are do not. Wrong. Health care is simply not cloning, euthanasia, and abortion, no matter the ways you state it is.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course it is an attack on human dignity. But it is not sufficient to include torture in a list of nen-negotiables unless we have some common notion of what the term means. Does sleep deprivation count? Does rough, cursing verbal interrogation? The government continues to muddle through theses issues, and we also need to address it. Without this exercise, it is too cheap and easy to rhetorically throw around the term as a &#8220;gotcha!&#8221; to people you disagree with, suggesting they don&#8217;t have a consistent ethic of life, while of course you do.</p>
<p>And regarding the expansion of S-CHIP, the creation of new entitlements, or your view of single-payer ect., I don&#8217;t need to have an alternative to have a consistent ethic of life. It&#8217;s a public policy matter, one I am still studying. (And you misrepresent again with assigning tax credits as my solution &#8211; I don&#8217;t have one and have stated so clearly). If you have your policy preferences &#8211; great. But it is moral preening not only to fold those preferences into the consistent ethic of life &#8211; when one may legitimately believe in alternatives, so long as there is the goal and the striving for life and human dignity &#8211; but to keep suggesting that those who would oppose whatever your preferences are do not. Wrong. Health care is simply not cloning, euthanasia, and abortion, no matter the ways you state it is.</p>
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		<title>By: Morning's Minion</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/29/usccb-debates-consistent-ethic-of-life/#comment-3782</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Morning's Minion]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 16:02:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/29/usccb-debates-consistent-ethic-of-life/#comment-3782</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jonathan, your arguments are all over the place. First, let&#039;s be clear what are &quot;non-negotiable&quot;-- abortion, euthanasia, cloning, torture, attcks on non-combatants. There are other matters in the gospel of life that offer more room for debate (e.g how to solve the health care crisis), but this is still not an excuse for ignoring the issue. Case in point: if you oppose attempts to increase insurance like S-CHIP, then you&#039;d better have a good alternative to provide health care (and tax credits don&#039;t cut it) or else it is fair game to question one&#039;s commitment to the consistent ethic of life. And, by the way, torture IS up there with abortion as a non-negotiable intrinsically evil act-- we are not in the domain of health care here.

Second, you are getting into definitional issues. Torture is not something you can fit into a narrow category, it is a basic attack on human dignity, the treatment of the human being as a means to an end. Because we cannot draw a fine line, does that mean torture is of lesser importance? No. And by the way, there are also vigorous debates over what does and does not comprise euthanasia (most recently over patients in persistent vegetative states)-- to deny the importance of euthanasia simply because of this narrow grey area would be very wrong-- but that is what you seem to be arguing in the case of torture.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jonathan, your arguments are all over the place. First, let&#8217;s be clear what are &#8220;non-negotiable&#8221;&#8211; abortion, euthanasia, cloning, torture, attcks on non-combatants. There are other matters in the gospel of life that offer more room for debate (e.g how to solve the health care crisis), but this is still not an excuse for ignoring the issue. Case in point: if you oppose attempts to increase insurance like S-CHIP, then you&#8217;d better have a good alternative to provide health care (and tax credits don&#8217;t cut it) or else it is fair game to question one&#8217;s commitment to the consistent ethic of life. And, by the way, torture IS up there with abortion as a non-negotiable intrinsically evil act&#8211; we are not in the domain of health care here.</p>
<p>Second, you are getting into definitional issues. Torture is not something you can fit into a narrow category, it is a basic attack on human dignity, the treatment of the human being as a means to an end. Because we cannot draw a fine line, does that mean torture is of lesser importance? No. And by the way, there are also vigorous debates over what does and does not comprise euthanasia (most recently over patients in persistent vegetative states)&#8211; to deny the importance of euthanasia simply because of this narrow grey area would be very wrong&#8211; but that is what you seem to be arguing in the case of torture.</p>
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		<title>By: jonathanjones02</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/29/usccb-debates-consistent-ethic-of-life/#comment-3780</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jonathanjones02]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 15:37:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/29/usccb-debates-consistent-ethic-of-life/#comment-3780</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[And MM, I am still be interested in your direct response to the two points....if that&#039;s &quot;proportionalism,&quot; then we are defining the term down to almost no meaning whatsoever.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And MM, I am still be interested in your direct response to the two points&#8230;.if that&#8217;s &#8220;proportionalism,&#8221; then we are defining the term down to almost no meaning whatsoever.</p>
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		<title>By: Morning's Minion</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/29/usccb-debates-consistent-ethic-of-life/#comment-3779</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Morning's Minion]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 15:35:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/29/usccb-debates-consistent-ethic-of-life/#comment-3779</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jay--

Proportionate reasons are indeed valid criteria for moral decision making, if and only if the issue is not intrinscially evil to begin with, otherwise you are engaging in proportionalism. But the acting of voting is not an intrinsically evil act, and if do not share the evil intent of a particular action, then you may indeed vote for a person who supports such an action without engaging in formal cooperation -- given &quot;proportionate reasons&quot;. It&#039;s basically an application of doubl effect reasoning. Of course, we can have a debate over whether there are compelling proportionate reasons to ever vote for a pro-abortion candidate, but what we cannot do is rule it out absolutely.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jay&#8211;</p>
<p>Proportionate reasons are indeed valid criteria for moral decision making, if and only if the issue is not intrinscially evil to begin with, otherwise you are engaging in proportionalism. But the acting of voting is not an intrinsically evil act, and if do not share the evil intent of a particular action, then you may indeed vote for a person who supports such an action without engaging in formal cooperation &#8212; given &#8220;proportionate reasons&#8221;. It&#8217;s basically an application of doubl effect reasoning. Of course, we can have a debate over whether there are compelling proportionate reasons to ever vote for a pro-abortion candidate, but what we cannot do is rule it out absolutely.</p>
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		<title>By: ben</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/29/usccb-debates-consistent-ethic-of-life/#comment-3778</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ben]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 15:30:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/29/usccb-debates-consistent-ethic-of-life/#comment-3778</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[MM,

So you have the party of war and mammon vs. the party of death and moloch.

Where is the consistent ethic of life?

It&#039;s nowhere

The fact of the matter is that we are asked in this country to choose between the party of war and mammon which would like to see thousands killed in its name every year and the party of death and moloch which would like to see millions killed in its name every year.

Given that the one thing the church seems to consistently say every year --that we ought to vote--then only one of these choices seems justifiable.  And it can only be justifed under the priciple of double effect, where the action intended is not to vote to put the party of war and mammon into power but really only to prevent the party of death and moloch from taking power.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MM,</p>
<p>So you have the party of war and mammon vs. the party of death and moloch.</p>
<p>Where is the consistent ethic of life?</p>
<p>It&#8217;s nowhere</p>
<p>The fact of the matter is that we are asked in this country to choose between the party of war and mammon which would like to see thousands killed in its name every year and the party of death and moloch which would like to see millions killed in its name every year.</p>
<p>Given that the one thing the church seems to consistently say every year &#8211;that we ought to vote&#8211;then only one of these choices seems justifiable.  And it can only be justifed under the priciple of double effect, where the action intended is not to vote to put the party of war and mammon into power but really only to prevent the party of death and moloch from taking power.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Iafrate</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/29/usccb-debates-consistent-ethic-of-life/#comment-3777</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael Iafrate]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 15:26:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/29/usccb-debates-consistent-ethic-of-life/#comment-3777</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;I&gt;Nevertheless, surely it is a valid exercise to say that the policy items in Bucket A are more important than the policy items in all the other buckets.&lt;/I&gt;

There are no &quot;buckets.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Nevertheless, surely it is a valid exercise to say that the policy items in Bucket A are more important than the policy items in all the other buckets.</i></p>
<p>There are no &#8220;buckets.&#8221;</p>
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