Comments on: St. Augustine: Soft on crime?

By: Why I Support Obama (By a Guy Who Shouldn’t) | Fallen and Flawed

Why I Support Obama (By a Guy Who Shouldn’t) | Fallen and Flawed — Tue, 20 Jan 2009 20:43:25 +0000

[...] Augustine insisted capital punishment was wrong because it robbed someone of the opportunity to repent. Jim Elliot promoted something similar. [...]

By: St. Augustine: on crime « St. Augustine

St. Augustine: on crime « St. Augustine — Thu, 22 Nov 2007 01:13:33 +0000

[...] post info By aureliusaugustinus Categories: Augustine, Christianity, Religion, St. Augustine, apologetics, reformed theology and scripture Tags: Augustine, Christianity, church, Religion, St. Augustine St. Augustine: Soft on crime? « Vox Nova [...]

By: Andy

Andy — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:35:08 +0000

It would be truly exceptional if Augustine had been against the death penalty in his day though, wouldn’t it? He does actually ask for correction if you see an inconsistency in his work, but here I think we are seeing something wrong in his era. So we do need both the above tendencies in reading Augustine today. Here, I think both points are well taken: mercy in practise until we have come to an understanding of the theology of the issue. For my part, I am fairly clear about the theology of the death penalty, but we still need principles to guide our action whilst discussing it.

By: Michael Iafrate

Michael Iafrate — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 00:33:45 +0000

Don – I never claimed that Augustine’s thought is perfect, or consistent for that matter. But his praxis in this case speaks for itself.

I gotta hand it to your ability to argue with me on just about everything though! The gun-toting guardians of the inhuman status quo must appreciate your efforts.

By: Donald R. McClarey

Donald R. McClarey — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 00:17:55 +0000

Michael after I posted last night I read the correspondence between Saint Agustine and Macedonius the Vicar of Africa. I do not believe the correspondence is on line, at least I could not find it, but I did locate a copy of it in the The Political Writings of Saint Augustine, Regnery-Gateway 1962. Like most of the thought of Saint Augustine it is complicated. Augustine views interceding for convicted criminals as part of his episcopal duties. However he also appreciates the role of those who judge criminals. This phrase occurs: “There is good, then, in your severity which works to secure our tranquility, and there is good in our intercession which works to restrain your severity. Do not be displeased at being petitioned by the good, because the good are not displeased that you are feared by the wicked.” This is stated in a passage concerning Saint Paul’s statement regarding the ruler not bearing the sword in vain. Saint Augustine goes on to write later that “But if perversity and impiety are so great that neither punisment nor pardon can avail to correct them, it is still true that, whether severity or leniency is shown, the obligation of charity is fulfilled by the good through their intention and upright conscience which God beholds.”

Saint Augustine goes on to deny that he would intercede for a thief who did not restore his ill-gotten plunder, assuming he had concealed what he had stolen.

By: Michael Iafrate

Michael Iafrate — Sun, 28 Oct 2007 17:37:03 +0000

Donald – We have here a case of a tension between what Augustine said in his theological works that attempt to speak in a universal way (the quote you provided) and what he actually did in his life (the quote I provided). The “soft on crime” remark was in reference to his actions, which can be differentiated from his thoughts. You must be familiar with that type of distinction.

By: Donald R. McClarey

Donald R. McClarey — Sun, 28 Oct 2007 02:28:56 +0000

No, I would never call Saint Augustine soft on crime:

“The same divine authority that forbids the killing of a human being establishes certain exceptions, as when God authorizes killing by a general law or when He gives an explicit commission to an individual for a limited time. The agent who executes the killing does not commit homicide; he is an instrument as is the sword with which he cuts. Therefore, it is in no way contrary to the commandment, ‘Thou shalt not kill’ to wage war at God’s bidding, or for the representatives of public authority to put criminals to death, according to the law, that is, the will of the most just reason.”

(The City of God, Book 1, chapter 21)

By: Abbey-Roads2 » Blog Archive » Saints who were sinners.

Abbey-Roads2 » Blog Archive » Saints who were sinners. — Sat, 27 Oct 2007 19:04:18 +0000

[...] I prefer the saints who were great sinners, they seemed to be especially compassionate towards other sinners. Here is a quote from St. Augustine concerning his request for clemency for a condemned criminal: In no way, then do we approve of the sins that we want to be corrected, nor do we want the wrongdoing to go unpunished because we find it pleasing. Rather, having compassion for the person and detesting the sin or crime, the more we are displeased by the sin the less we want the sinful person to perish without having been corrected. For it is easy and natural to hate evil persons because they are evil, but it is rare and holy to love those same persons because they are human beings. – Vox Nova [...]