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	<title>Comments on: Dorothy Day&#8217;s Pacifism&#8211;The Result of Reason and Praxis</title>
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	<link>http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/26/dorothy-days-pacifism-the-result-of-reason-and-praxsis/</link>
	<description>Catholic perspectives on culture, society, and politics</description>
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		<title>By: Policraticus</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/26/dorothy-days-pacifism-the-result-of-reason-and-praxsis/#comment-3751</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Policraticus]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 01:06:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/26/dorothy-days-pacifism-the-result-of-reason-and-praxsis/#comment-3751</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Nate and Matt seem to say implicitly what is quite explicit in Donald&#039;s view of pacifism: he conflates nonviolent resistance, conditional pacifism and absolute pacifism.  Now, I am not an absolute pacifist, and I suspect Donald is insinuating that I am one in order to simplify my position for an &lt;i&gt;ad hoc&lt;/i&gt; refutation. His ensuing refutation is based upon this conflation, and turns out to be a straw man.  There is no question that the Church commends authoritatively nonviolent resistance and conditional pacifism.  Absolute pacifism in terms of warfare is neither endorsed nor rejected by Church doctrine, and it remains a viable option for the Catholic.  Pope Benedict XVI feels that absolute pacifism is not a sustainable option, though he cautiously advances his sentiment so as to leave open the debate.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nate and Matt seem to say implicitly what is quite explicit in Donald&#8217;s view of pacifism: he conflates nonviolent resistance, conditional pacifism and absolute pacifism.  Now, I am not an absolute pacifist, and I suspect Donald is insinuating that I am one in order to simplify my position for an <i>ad hoc</i> refutation. His ensuing refutation is based upon this conflation, and turns out to be a straw man.  There is no question that the Church commends authoritatively nonviolent resistance and conditional pacifism.  Absolute pacifism in terms of warfare is neither endorsed nor rejected by Church doctrine, and it remains a viable option for the Catholic.  Pope Benedict XVI feels that absolute pacifism is not a sustainable option, though he cautiously advances his sentiment so as to leave open the debate.</p>
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		<title>By: Nate Wildermuth</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/26/dorothy-days-pacifism-the-result-of-reason-and-praxsis/#comment-3738</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nate Wildermuth]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Oct 2007 20:10:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/26/dorothy-days-pacifism-the-result-of-reason-and-praxsis/#comment-3738</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Matt&#039;s right - pacifism is a broad word.  Donald uses it as if it is passive non-resistance to evil, while we who actually call ourselves pacifist use it to mean non-violent struggle against injustice.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt&#8217;s right &#8211; pacifism is a broad word.  Donald uses it as if it is passive non-resistance to evil, while we who actually call ourselves pacifist use it to mean non-violent struggle against injustice.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Talbot</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/26/dorothy-days-pacifism-the-result-of-reason-and-praxsis/#comment-3734</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Matt Talbot]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Oct 2007 17:41:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/26/dorothy-days-pacifism-the-result-of-reason-and-praxsis/#comment-3734</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Pacifism does not mean passivity or quietism in the face of evil - it means resisting evil through means other than violence. 

The Nazis didn&#039;t just &quot;arise&quot; in some pre-ordained, law-of-physics sort of way. They worked to gain power, using German&#039;s (somewhat justified) resentment of having been assigned sole blame (and suffering under ruinous reparations) for the carnage of World War I.

European nations failed to recognize the danger posed by the rise of Hitler and the Nazis, and Germans allowed themselves to be seduced by the intoxicating brew of nationalism and self-exhaltation being peddled by Hitler and his minions. 

None of that was inevitable: The allies could have been more humble and willing to accept more of the blame for WWI after their  victory in 1918, and thus not impose such unfair and one-sided reparations upon Germany. 

Germans could have resisted the temptation to give in to the Idolatry and self-glorification of nationalism, and instead worked to convince the victorious nations of the injustice of the Versailles armistice, through the non-violent means of appealing to their consciences.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pacifism does not mean passivity or quietism in the face of evil &#8211; it means resisting evil through means other than violence. </p>
<p>The Nazis didn&#8217;t just &#8220;arise&#8221; in some pre-ordained, law-of-physics sort of way. They worked to gain power, using German&#8217;s (somewhat justified) resentment of having been assigned sole blame (and suffering under ruinous reparations) for the carnage of World War I.</p>
<p>European nations failed to recognize the danger posed by the rise of Hitler and the Nazis, and Germans allowed themselves to be seduced by the intoxicating brew of nationalism and self-exhaltation being peddled by Hitler and his minions. </p>
<p>None of that was inevitable: The allies could have been more humble and willing to accept more of the blame for WWI after their  victory in 1918, and thus not impose such unfair and one-sided reparations upon Germany. </p>
<p>Germans could have resisted the temptation to give in to the Idolatry and self-glorification of nationalism, and instead worked to convince the victorious nations of the injustice of the Versailles armistice, through the non-violent means of appealing to their consciences.</p>
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		<title>By: Abbey-Roads2 &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The perennial unpopularity of Dorothy Day.</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/26/dorothy-days-pacifism-the-result-of-reason-and-praxsis/#comment-3733</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Abbey-Roads2 &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The perennial unpopularity of Dorothy Day.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Oct 2007 17:37:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/26/dorothy-days-pacifism-the-result-of-reason-and-praxsis/#comment-3733</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] themselves on issues of war and peace, wars of aggression versus wars of defense, and so on.  Policraticus  has an informative post on Day and her pacifism which merits looking at:  &#8220;An important [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] themselves on issues of war and peace, wars of aggression versus wars of defense, and so on.  Policraticus  has an informative post on Day and her pacifism which merits looking at:  &#8220;An important [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Nate Wildermuth</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/26/dorothy-days-pacifism-the-result-of-reason-and-praxsis/#comment-3719</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nate Wildermuth]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Oct 2007 02:26:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/26/dorothy-days-pacifism-the-result-of-reason-and-praxsis/#comment-3719</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Donald,

Pacifism is different than nonviolent peacemaking.  Soldiers do have the role of defending society.  The only question is - how?  Violently or nonviolently?  You do not believe that nonviolent defense is possible.  The Church does.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Donald,</p>
<p>Pacifism is different than nonviolent peacemaking.  Soldiers do have the role of defending society.  The only question is &#8211; how?  Violently or nonviolently?  You do not believe that nonviolent defense is possible.  The Church does.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Iafrate</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/26/dorothy-days-pacifism-the-result-of-reason-and-praxsis/#comment-3717</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael Iafrate]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Oct 2007 00:24:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/26/dorothy-days-pacifism-the-result-of-reason-and-praxsis/#comment-3717</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;I&gt;The question is what good men should do when a war arises.&lt;/I&gt;

Does war simply &quot;arise&quot; apart from the human beings who start them?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>The question is what good men should do when a war arises.</i></p>
<p>Does war simply &#8220;arise&#8221; apart from the human beings who start them?</p>
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		<title>By: Donald R. McClarey</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/26/dorothy-days-pacifism-the-result-of-reason-and-praxsis/#comment-3702</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Donald R. McClarey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Oct 2007 03:27:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/26/dorothy-days-pacifism-the-result-of-reason-and-praxsis/#comment-3702</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Nate, there would be no Jews alive in Europe today if they had listened to one of your pacifist forebears:

http://die_meistersinger.tripod.com/gandhi9.html

All your pacifism would accomplish is to make the world safer for tyrants.

Michael Joseph, if pacifism is only useful when no conditions exist that could lead to war than it is truely a useless philosphy.  The question is what good men should do when a war arises.  A pacifist says they should never fight.  I think history demonstrates what would happen if only evil men take up the sword.   The Jews had no army to protect them and they suffered the worst crime in secular history.  

Nate,  for your perusal:

&quot;Nor can I fail to mention the many soldiers engaged in the delicate work of resolving conflicts and restoring the necessary conditions for peace. I wish to remind them of the words of the Second Vatican Council: &#039;&#039;All those who enter the military in service to their country should look upon themselves as guardians of the security and freedom of their fellow-countrymen, and, in carrying out this duty properly, they too contribute to the establishment of peace&#039;&#039;.(8) On this demanding front the Catholic Church&#039;s military ordinariates carry out their pastoral activity: I encourage both the military Ordinaries and military chaplains to be, in every situation and context, faithful heralds of the truth of peace.&quot;

Pope Benedict World Day of Peace January 1, 2006.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nate, there would be no Jews alive in Europe today if they had listened to one of your pacifist forebears:</p>
<p><a href="http://die_meistersinger.tripod.com/gandhi9.html" rel="nofollow">http://die_meistersinger.tripod.com/gandhi9.html</a></p>
<p>All your pacifism would accomplish is to make the world safer for tyrants.</p>
<p>Michael Joseph, if pacifism is only useful when no conditions exist that could lead to war than it is truely a useless philosphy.  The question is what good men should do when a war arises.  A pacifist says they should never fight.  I think history demonstrates what would happen if only evil men take up the sword.   The Jews had no army to protect them and they suffered the worst crime in secular history.  </p>
<p>Nate,  for your perusal:</p>
<p>&#8220;Nor can I fail to mention the many soldiers engaged in the delicate work of resolving conflicts and restoring the necessary conditions for peace. I wish to remind them of the words of the Second Vatican Council: &#8221;All those who enter the military in service to their country should look upon themselves as guardians of the security and freedom of their fellow-countrymen, and, in carrying out this duty properly, they too contribute to the establishment of peace&#8221;.(8) On this demanding front the Catholic Church&#8217;s military ordinariates carry out their pastoral activity: I encourage both the military Ordinaries and military chaplains to be, in every situation and context, faithful heralds of the truth of peace.&#8221;</p>
<p>Pope Benedict World Day of Peace January 1, 2006.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Iafrate</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/26/dorothy-days-pacifism-the-result-of-reason-and-praxsis/#comment-3674</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael Iafrate]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Oct 2007 17:49:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/26/dorothy-days-pacifism-the-result-of-reason-and-praxsis/#comment-3674</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Christopher - As you know, Benedict is no pacifist. Nevertheless, he said what he said.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Christopher &#8211; As you know, Benedict is no pacifist. Nevertheless, he said what he said.</p>
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		<title>By: Dustin</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/26/dorothy-days-pacifism-the-result-of-reason-and-praxsis/#comment-3666</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dustin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Oct 2007 13:49:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/26/dorothy-days-pacifism-the-result-of-reason-and-praxsis/#comment-3666</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Policraticus&#039; comment is to be much appreciated in highlighting that WW2, in particular, was no mere response to the evil of fascism and genocide, but was everything that provoked and conditioned and defined it, including the endeavours of the Nazis (and in the East, we could include the Soviets) before fighting ever broke out.  In that sense, it was indeed a horrendous calamity, an extraordinary failure.  The subsequent fighting that we remember as the &quot;good war&quot; was the ensnaring of the world in such a failure and the compulsion to prolong it unto exhaustion.

While I cannot share, or endorse, the notion of absolute pacifism as binding  upon the Christian conscience, I think there are occasions when it may be the only legitimate option, however radical it may seem.  I see it therefore not just as a radical option, but conditionally normative.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Policraticus&#8217; comment is to be much appreciated in highlighting that WW2, in particular, was no mere response to the evil of fascism and genocide, but was everything that provoked and conditioned and defined it, including the endeavours of the Nazis (and in the East, we could include the Soviets) before fighting ever broke out.  In that sense, it was indeed a horrendous calamity, an extraordinary failure.  The subsequent fighting that we remember as the &#8220;good war&#8221; was the ensnaring of the world in such a failure and the compulsion to prolong it unto exhaustion.</p>
<p>While I cannot share, or endorse, the notion of absolute pacifism as binding  upon the Christian conscience, I think there are occasions when it may be the only legitimate option, however radical it may seem.  I see it therefore not just as a radical option, but conditionally normative.</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/26/dorothy-days-pacifism-the-result-of-reason-and-praxsis/#comment-3659</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Christopher]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Oct 2007 04:30:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/26/dorothy-days-pacifism-the-result-of-reason-and-praxsis/#comment-3659</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;Donald, you’ll have to take that up with Benedict. The words are his. I’m surprised your ultramontanist tendencies do not urge you to listen to him.&lt;/i&gt;

Good grief. And at this point, we&#039;ll do another comparison/contrast of selective quotations from Benedict that lend the appearance of an absolute pacifism or an abolishment of just war doctrine with other quoteations that contradict said interpretation, as we have time and time again on this blog . . . 

On second thought, why bother. =)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Donald, you’ll have to take that up with Benedict. The words are his. I’m surprised your ultramontanist tendencies do not urge you to listen to him.</i></p>
<p>Good grief. And at this point, we&#8217;ll do another comparison/contrast of selective quotations from Benedict that lend the appearance of an absolute pacifism or an abolishment of just war doctrine with other quoteations that contradict said interpretation, as we have time and time again on this blog . . . </p>
<p>On second thought, why bother. =)</p>
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		<title>By: Nate Wildermuth</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/26/dorothy-days-pacifism-the-result-of-reason-and-praxsis/#comment-3658</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nate Wildermuth]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Oct 2007 04:28:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/26/dorothy-days-pacifism-the-result-of-reason-and-praxsis/#comment-3658</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Donald, WWII did not save the Jews of Europe.  It nearly destroyed them.

America had a chance to accept million of Jews from Europe during the 30s,  But we refused.  If you listened to our Popes instead of repeating the same tired references to the holocaust, you&#039;d get a lot more mileage.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Donald, WWII did not save the Jews of Europe.  It nearly destroyed them.</p>
<p>America had a chance to accept million of Jews from Europe during the 30s,  But we refused.  If you listened to our Popes instead of repeating the same tired references to the holocaust, you&#8217;d get a lot more mileage.</p>
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		<title>By: Policraticus</title>
		<link>http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/26/dorothy-days-pacifism-the-result-of-reason-and-praxsis/#comment-3657</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Policraticus]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Oct 2007 04:22:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vox-nova.com/2007/10/26/dorothy-days-pacifism-the-result-of-reason-and-praxsis/#comment-3657</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;War&quot; is not simply the fighting, but also the circumstances that condition it.  The inhumanity of the Holocaust was but one chapter of WWII, and though I am not a Jew, let alone a Holocaust survivor, I reckon no Jew would suggest that liberation from the Holocaust is greater than no Holocaust what so ever.  War, its acts and its conditions, is failure.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;War&#8221; is not simply the fighting, but also the circumstances that condition it.  The inhumanity of the Holocaust was but one chapter of WWII, and though I am not a Jew, let alone a Holocaust survivor, I reckon no Jew would suggest that liberation from the Holocaust is greater than no Holocaust what so ever.  War, its acts and its conditions, is failure.</p>
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