If we are attacked, we are obliged to protect ourselves, our children. The just-war theory makes sense.

While it is true that we are all one body in Christ, that does not mean we are not meant to have associations, or countries. It’s a necessity of life that we must prioritize according to our state in life. A father must look after the well being of his own children before he concerns himself with his neighbor’s children. The United States must protectt he well being of her people before she tackles the problems of the world.

There is no perfect political /economic system, if there was, Jesus would have told us about it. He did not come to change government (although he respected it and submitted himself to it). He came to change hearts, one at a time.

God Bless,

Kristin

Our baptism into the Body of Christ changes who “our people” are. All those who are members of the Body, or potential members of the Body, i.e. all human beings are “our people.”

Based on my own reflections, I believe, in our daily lives, we are meant to be agents of peace….with those who offend us, misjudge us, criticize us, annoy us, and abandon us.. We are to rebel against our pride and pursue the path of sacrifice and mortification.

However, on a collective/governmental leval, there are times when we must fight for the common good and the protection of our people. War should always be a last resort, but sometimes one must confront evil in order to secure the true peace which Jesus talks about. True peace does not gloss over injustices or turn a blind eye to dangerous dictators.

However, that being said, if we pursue holiness on an individual level, that peace will naturally spread to our families, our workplaces, our communitiies, our government and our world—thus eliminating the need for war.

I admire Dorothy Day for many differnt reasons. She fully believed in the inherent dignity of every person, and saw Christ in them. Her spirituality was one of heroic sacrafice, of conversion, of a faith put into practice. She lived mercy and had the heart of Christ. However, I beleive she was well-meaned, when it came to her complete pacifist stance on war, she was wrong.

Can she still be called a saint? Yes, for saints do not have to be “right” on everything. Saints have been wrong. Saints have made mistakes. Not everything a saint says can be quoted as Gospel. St. Jerome is quoted as saying, “The only good thng about marriage is that it brings forth more virgins.” Pope John Paul II admitted in his writings towards the the end of his life he should have been more of diciplinarian. You and I, by the call of he Second Vatican Council are called to sainthood. Have I been right on everything? Heck no! :)

If she is declared a saint, it will be because of ferver of her love, but not necessarily for her political views.

The joint owners of this blog are clearly not the “traditional” Catholics they claim to be. This was a good thread, you drew the poison slowly out of Michael for all to see.

(End of discussion)

Promise?

My goodness how glibly you dismiss the courage of ‘that mass of soldiers’. They were BOY’s who laid down their lives so YOU could enjoy YOUR freedom. Your ignorance is obvious to all.

God in peace

Marie (End of discussion)!

She doesn’t have the right to make a gospel-based judgment on the military in the “free country” that you are describing? Why not?

And if what you say is true, then YOU have no right to talk about soldiers and what they did or did not do.

I will not accept nor tolerate what Dorothy Day is trying to do when she tries to paint both Allied soldiers and the Nazi’s/Japanese soldiers as if they were of the same calibre. There is a VAST difference and shame on anyone who tries to make this comparison.

When precisely did she do this?

Did it ever occur to Dorothy Day that the Allied soldiers fought because it was the right thing to do in a time where an evil despot such as Adolf Hitler intended to rule the world by force.

I’m sure the thought crossed her mind. Surely she thought something needed to be done about Hitler. But not war.

How patronizing to infer that these brave men went to war for money! What good is money if you’re dead?

You need to talk with current U.S. soldiers about why they enlist. A vast majority of them do it for the money or for the “opportunities” it will give them.

There is a difference between harassment and persecution. Dorothy Day was probably watched by the CIA and the FBI from her days spent with the communist, John Reed.

The Catholic Worker as a whole was harassed.

You obviously have a slavish devotion to Dorothy Day and cannot bear anyone to oppose your own one eyed view, but at least recognise your ignorance.

I do have a devotion to Dorothy Day, but I fail to see how this makes me blind about her. I don’t agree with everything she said. I would rather have a devotion to Day than to a mass of soldiers. Ignorance about what?

Only those who have been through the fire have the Moral Authority to speak about it!

Then you should take your own advice and quiet down, eh?

As for me I honour our war dead.

I choose, rather, to honor the saints of God.

Now lets take a look at my first response. Dorothy Day did not have the Moral authority to write about soldiers or what they did and didn’t do, especially as she decided to stay within the safe confines of her own free country. I will not accept nor tolerate what Dorothy Day is trying to do when she tries to paint both Allied soldiers and the Nazi’s/Japanese soldiers as if they were of the same calibre. There is a VAST difference and shame on anyone who tries to make this comparison.

Did it ever occur to Dorothy Day that the Allied soldiers fought because it was the right thing to do in a time where an evil despot such as Adolf Hitler intended to rule the world by force. How patronizing to infer that these brave men went to war for money! What good is money if you’re dead?

To say that these brave young men went to war because they were afraid of ‘what will the neighbours think’ how ludicrous! Who is Dorothy Day to accuse anyone of anything? She stayed home!

There is a difference between harassment and persecution. Dorothy Day was probably watched by the CIA and the FBI from her days spent with the communist, John Reed. Dorothy was harassed the Jews were persecuted, and THAT’s the difference!….For Dorothy to claim that all are our ‘brothers’ tell that to Elie Wiesel. Tell that man who lost his entire family that he should embrace his Nazi ‘brothers’ oh spare me!

You obviously have a slavish devotion to Dorothy Day and cannot bear anyone to oppose your own one eyed view, but at least recognise your ignorance.

I take more note of Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Sophie and Hans Scholl(do you even KNOW who they are?). Blessed Maria Restituta Kafka, Saint Maximilian Kolbe over and above Dorothy Day.

Only those who have been through the fire have the Moral Authority to speak about it!
As for me I honour our war dead. I treasure my freedom and give thanks to those who fought for it. I remember the millions who were slaughtered by the Nazi’s. I respect the resistance fighters who stood their ground in a time of great moral crisis when it was a war of good vs evil.

Now I have more things to do than continue this debate. So take a chill pill Michael and go out and enjoy the sunshine and perhaps spare a thought for those young men who died on the beaches of Normandy!

Go in Peace

Marie

This is funny, considering 1) she WAS imprisoned, time and time again, 2) she and the Catholic Worker were harassed by the FBI and CIA constantly, and 3) they received death threats.

I brought up Dietrich Bonhoeffer to make a point. Here were two people with the same ideals and the contrast between them both is astounding. One put his life on the line for his ideals the other chose a safer path.

Do not denigrate the actions of this brave man and dismiss him as some sort of intellectual dilettant. This is a man who loved life, loved God and wanted to live, but he met his death bravely. In essense he died for his beliefs. Which is more than what YOU have done! You dismiss people so airily how very arrogant and presumptuous. I agree Bonhoeffer was no ‘war monger’ but neither did he choose a ’safe path’ for himself, he put his faith and his life on the line. Which is more than what Dorothy did.

You brought him up to make a point about WAR. Which is wrong, because he always opposed war. I certainly did NOT denigrate Bonhoeffer. I admire him very much and spent a semester studying his life and his writings chronologically. I am merely pointing out to you that to use Bonhoeffer to defend violence is wrong because he always opposed it. His decision to become involved in the plot to kill Hitler (again, a tangential involvement) was NOT based on a change in his thinking to accept the legitimacy of violence, but an act of desperation. There is a myth that has been built up around Bonhoeffer which has enabled people like yourself to use him to defend various positions, usually to support violence. And it’s a misuse of him to do this.

Again, I think it is unbelievable that you would say Dorothy Day chose a “safer” path. What she did was not “safe.” She is still being condemned by some (like you) for her views and her actions. That she was not presented with the type of opportunity to give her life like Bonhoeffer did does not represent a deficiency in her witness. We do no go seeking to become martyrs. We witness where we are.

As for Dorothy Day choosing to stay with ‘her people’. If she only cared about Americans then why did she object to the war in Vietnam? The Vietnamese were not Americans? Your argument does not stand up! Yes, she liked to rant about the ‘evils of the world’ but words are cheap in a time of great crisis.

I didn’t say at all that Dorothy Day “only cared about Americans.” I said she knew her calling, in her context, for the people that were hers to care for. She was a personalist and dealt with the people in front of her, some of whom were Americans, but a great number of them were not. That was her calling. Amazing that you would accuse her of being “all talk” and a “cheap” disciple! I suggest you read a little more about her before you make such off-the-mark accusations.

If you state you dont agree with the sitting Goverment within your own country will you be thrown into prison? Will you be beheaded? NO! If you hold a rally againsts the war in Iraq, will you suffer persecution? Will you be murdered for voicing your opinion? NO!

Are you kidding? The situation in the US is not as extreme as in other totalitarian states, but if you don’t think dissidents are persecuted, jailed, and assassinated in the United States, you apparently don’t know much about US history. Check out Howard Zinn’s A People’s History of the United States for a taste. Again, I point out that Dorothy Day herself was imprisoned countless times, received death threats, and was investigated by the U.S. government.

“The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in times of great moral crises maintain their neutrality.”

Who said anything about being neutral? I’m taking a stance. You’re off your rocker.